Maj. William Barker's Snipe.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
I believe that if Major William Barker had been flying an S.E.5a with either the 200 hp Hisso or 200hp Viper engine, instead of the Sopwith Snipe, he would have had better control of his famous engagement in October 1918. With the S.E.5a's superior speed, zoom and dive charateristics, at any altitude over the Fok.D.VII, even with the BMW IIIa engine, he would have been able to disengage at will and thus control the fight.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

What Rot you say? The SE5a Superior to the Snipe?

Blasphemy!

What's NOT in the statistics:

The SE5a's empty Weight

Rate of Climb.

According to the stats, the Snipe's maximum speed was 121 vs 120 for the SE5a. (not sure why that's in Statute MPH rather than 2000yard Knots).

The Snipe was only slightly heavier gross than the SE5a, but had a largert wing area, which would at least suggest it had more maneuvering ability. I'm not sure the mechanics of that, but I know that the aelerons on the Snipe were larger.

The Snipe could also stay in the air longer...

So I'm wondering Dan-San... What makes a man of your superior knowledge of WW1 Aviation say such a thing?

[WFS]

With the S.E.5a's superior speed, zoom and dive charateristics, at any altitude over the Fok.D.VII, even with the BMW IIIa engine, he would have been able to disengage at will and thus control the fight.* * Dan-San

He probably wouldn't have gotten his VC either. *He would have realized that he was wounded and ridiculously out numbered and used the SE5a's superior flying characteristics to get the h**l out of there!

Regards,
Wayne

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Grey and Wayne:
* * *I knew what I posted would evoke a response, thank you. *In regard to the relative performance of the S.E.5a and the Snipe. *I have referred to Jack Bruce's "BRITISH AEROPLANES 1914-1918, Putnam & Co. Ltd., London for the data on these two aircraft. *The data is from official tests conducted at the RFC/RAF test facility, Martlesham-Heath on production aircraft, not prototypes.
* * * * * * * *S.E.5a * * * *S.E.5a * * * Sopwith 7F1 Snipe.
* * * * * * *200 Hisso * * 200 Viper * * * * *230 BR-2
Empty wt. 1400 *lbs. * *1459 lbs. * * * * *1312 lbs. * * *
Loaded wt.1953 *lbs. * *1940 lbs. * * * * *2020 lbs.
Wing area. 249 sq.ft. * 249 sq.ft. * * * *271 sq.ft
Climb
to 10k ft. *10m20s. * * *11m0s. * * * * * * 9m25s.
to 15k ft. *18m50s. * * *19m55s * * * * * *18m50s. *
Ceiling. * * 22000 ft. * * 18000 ft. * * * * 19500 ft
max Air speed.
@10k ft. * * * - * * * * * *126mph * * * * * 121mph
@15 ft. * * 121 mph * * *123mph * * * * * 113mph
Fok. D.VIIFwith the BMWIIIa * *
Max A/S @ 6416 Ft(2000M) was *205 k/hr 127mph.
The S.E.5a @ 6500Ft was 132mph.
Endurance * 3 hrs * * * * *2.5 hrs. * * * * * *3hrs.
* * * * * * * * * *The S.E.5a in October were being delivered with 220 and 240 Hp geared Hissos and 220hp Wolseley Vipers engines, not the 200 hp engines.
* * * *What would have been a real tragedy was the Sopwith 7F1a Snipe which was being delivered to 45 Squadron, which were at war's end had received the first of these machines. They were to provide escort for the day bombers of the Independent Force against SSW D.III and D.IV and Fok. D.VII of the home defense Jasta. The max airspeed of th 7F1a Snipe was 103 mph @ 15000ft. They would have been eaten for breakfast.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San

[MikeW]

Dan San,

whilst I agree with you with regard to the dissapointing performance of the Snipe, I would suggest that after Barker got caught dozing by the Fokker that crept up below him and gave him his first injuries that caused him to faint, he would have had difficulty in disengaging from the subsequent fight no matter what machine he was flying!

Also his state of mind seems to have been a bit suspect whilst he was residing with 201 sqn, he was desperate for more "kills" - would he have run away that day even if he could?

Mike

[Droops]

Dan-San, trolling for response! What is the world coming to?

I've wondered from time to time how the Snipe would have faired against not just the SSW's and the DVII, but also against the DVIII, the new Junkers fighter, and various other planes that Germany was developing. In terms of speed, it certainly wasn't going to win. In a sense, it was a throwback to an earlier time where speed was less important than maneuverability.

There may have been a method to the madness though. I remember reading a story about Spads escorting heavy bombers and being jumped by a flight of Dr1s. The Dr1s, being of a slower speed and more maneuverable, could get to the bombers easily. The Spads couldn't protect well as they were faster and less manuverable, and thus hampered in their job.

Assuming that this is true, a long-range escort which is slower and more maneuverable might have a better chance of protecting Independent Force bombers going deep into German territory. One would assume that any home defense planes rising up to meet an attacking force would first go after the bombers. Under these circumstances, the Snipes might have a better chance of doing their job.

Pure speculation on my part.

Regards,

John

Okay, but the Snipe was PRETTIER!

Didn't have all them doodads stickinout all over it like a hedgehog...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Grey:
I agree, it is a good looking airplane. By the way on another thread, I mentioned that DPC Models has a flying model of the Snipe. Had the ABC Dragonfly engine worked out the Sopwith Dragon (Snipe with the Dragonfly engine) would have been a winner.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San, again you have me at a loss.

Please tell me about the ABC Dragonfly Engine