Medal of Honor to SBS???

[Vin]

If the Brits had kept their cool during the 1969 Civil Rights demonstrations in Derry, there would have been no need for the IRA.

The IRA maintained its quest for a united Ireland from the 20’s. Its bombing campaigns during the 40’s and 50’s are largely forgotten now. Anyone interested should read Brendan Behan’s “Borstal Boy” for a perspective. For those committed to a united, socialist Ireland, there remains a need for an IRA.

The IRA had fallen moribund during the 60’s. There was little interest in a united, socialist Ireland on either side of the border. In 1969, inspired by the civil rights movement in the United States, activists among the disenfranchised, largely nationalist (and why would you want to be loyal to a Crown that denied you housing, jobs and the vote), catholic community, sought to assert their rights to equality of opportunity in housing, employment and the vote. The reaction of the Loyalist, protestant, majority was violent. Its members attacked marches and gatherings and raided catholic areas, beating individuals, destroying property and setting fire to homes.

In the countries whence most of us here come, we would expect the police to act in an even handed manner, prevent attacks and raids and prosecute anyone who assaulted another's person or property. In Northern Ireland, the Royal Ulster Constabulary did none of these. Indeed its members were regularly identified as members of the attackers and raiders. The British Army was called in to perform the function which most of us here would regard as that of the local police. At first the army was welcomed by the catholic minority. However, in due course, the army demonstrated where its loyalties lay, failing to protect catholic areas and marchers and actively assisting the oppressors.

The then few members of the IRA undertook the defence of catholic areas, in Belfast and Derry, against Loyalist raids. Had Stormont acted to introduce equality and civil justice, had Westminster acted to ensure that its citizens in Northern Ireland enjoyed the same civil liberties as did its citizens in the rest of the United Kingdom, had the British Army done its job properly then the IRA would have either disappeared or continued to be a minor, nuisance value, organisation committed to an ideal adhered to by a diminishing minority on both sides of the border. With nobody else to protect them, the catholic, nationalist community, turned to the IRA which abandoned the socialist ideal and grew into the organisation we witness today.

I think we are saying the same thing, Leo. The contemporary IRA are no angels. If they were, they would not survive long with Red Hand, UDF and the SAS for that matter. It’s a bit rich painting the British Army as innocents in Northern Ireland.


Vin

[leo]

The Republican Movement in Ireland is fairly complicated. *There are all kinds of splinter groups that have little to do with each other. *They range throught the Regular, Provisional, Real and the Irish National Liberation Army. None are boy scouts.

One hears little about their opposite numbers in the Ulster Freedom Fighters, Ulster Defense Volunteers, Red Hand Comandos to name a few. Believe me, these guys are not boy scouts either.

The Provisionals have signed on to the Peace Process and they are beginning to put their arms out of use. What are the Loyalist paramilitary groups doing?

Leo & Vin,
Interesting comments,guys. I agree. The British army screwed up on numerous occasions, and the British government did what governments always do, for which the ordinary soldier usually pays.
Yes, one seldom hears of the various protestant paramilitaries, who have been every bit as nasty as the IRA. That is odd, seeing as how the media in the USA has if anything been pro-IRA. You would think they would have played up the bad stuff committed by the UDF,etc.
I thought that several protestant groups turned in weapons some time ago, and the one major holdup has been the lack of cooperation from the IRA. By the way, I don't know if real weapons were turned in, as opposed to a couple of .303's and a .22 plus some shotguns.
Despite Vin's comments on the origins of the situation c.1969, I still feel that the British army has spent most of its time keeping the two sides apart. That they spent the majority of it in battle with the IRA is testimony to the abilities of that organization. It might be interesting to determine how many British soldiers died at the hands of the protestant groups.

[Vin]

I still feel that the British army has spent most of its time keeping the two sides apart. That they spent the majority of it in battle with the IRA is testimony to the abilities of that organization. It might be interesting to determine how many British soldiers died at the hands of the protestant groups. *

Terry,

I am curious why you still feel that the British army has spent most of its time keeping the two sides apart. Its enemy is the IRA, not the loyalist paramilitary with whom the Army has a common aim – the status quo. UDA, UFF, UVF, UDF, LVF, SDA, Red Hand Defenders etc. target individuals whom they identify as being members of or associated with the IRA. They do not take on the British Army so it is unlikely that many, if any at all, British soldiers have been killed by the loyalist paramilitary. The nationalists certainly believe that Army intelligence finds its way to the loyalist paramilitary groups to identify and locate targets.


Leo,

Take a look at

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...inside/mac.html

to see an interview with our old mate.


Vin

[leo]

Thanks Vin;

I will check it out. Do you read An Phoblacht?

Hi Vin,
Perhaps its my own lack of knowledge on the topic. I do have a couple of acquaintances (one Scot, one English) who served tours in Northern Ireland before coming to Canada. In both cases they seem to indicate that they didn't trust, or work with, either side. They just wanted the bloody thing to end.
The IRA posed the main threat, not because it represented the Catholic side (indeed both guys are Catholic) but because it was by far the best-equipped, best organized of the terrorist groups.
I know one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. George Washington: rebel who betrayed his king or freedom loving patriot? Depends on your point of view.Gerry Adams, fierce defender of his people or murderer? Take your pick.

[Vin]

'Evening, Terry

Just about everyone in the rest of the United Kingdom and the Republic share the sentiments of your acquaintances. Other than being an element of the respective tribal allegiances, religion is irrelevant to the conflict. Your acquaintances certainly could not have worked with the IRA – deadly enemies. Their contact with members of the loyalist paramilitary would have been minimal – unless they worked in intelligence, according to the nationalists, or unless they were involved in a confrontation, in which case they would have been ordered to withdraw. The Conservatives needed the Ulster Unionist vote at Westminster so the Army could not afford to be too far offside with the loyalists. If the north was not so hopelessly gerrymandered and nationalists so disenfranchised, maybe Sinn Fein would have the balance of power at Westminster instead of the Ulster Unionists. Wouldn’t that be interesting. It is no coincidence that the peace initiatives coincide with a Labour government with a significant enough majority not to need the Ulster Unionists.

The loyalists retain power and are unwilling to share it. The nationalists remain discriminated against in housing, employment and, crucially, voting. Simple social justice issue. It gets complicated when you introduce poverty, history, politics, ego, idealism, education, influential outsiders with their own agenda etc. into the mix.

Leo,

No, I don’t read “An Phoblacht” But what about our mate, eh ? What an interesting thing to do, given what was happening in the British Isles in the late 60’ early 70’s. Wouldn’t it be fun to sit down and have a yarn with him – preferably over a deep, rich, purple shiraz.


Vin

Vin,
Thoughtful comments on a difficult subject. I wonder if anyone could come up with an answer to the problem.

[leo]

Terry:

There does not appear to be an easy answer to the "Problems". Northern Ireland is a lovely spot. Have you been there? It deserves a peaceful settlement.

Have you noticed what has happened to the Republic lately? It is BOOMING. It always had that
potential, as does the North. Here's hoping!