Roland DVIa

I am sure that there is someone out there who could tell me a little about the history of the Roland D.VIa aircraft. If you know dates that it entered service, units that flew it, as well as how successful it was in combat, please relay this to me.

JASTA75

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Jasta 75:
The Rol. D.VIa with the Mercedes D.IIIaü was a fairly good airplane. It's performance was better than the Fok. D.VII with the same engine. It's maximum airspeed was 190 km/hr and it took 25 minutes to get to 5000 meters, the Fok.VII with the Mercedes D.IIIaü took 31 minutes to get to 5000 meters and it's maximum airspeed was 190 km/hr. The Fok. D.VIIf with the 185 BMWIIIa took 14 minute to 5K and it's max.airspeed was 200. The Rol.D.VIb with the Benz BzIIIaü got to 5K in 19 minutes and it's max airspeed was 200km/hr.
The Fok. D.VII was easier to build with it's welded fuselage.
The Rol.D.VIa & b had a very complex method of fuselage construction.
There were 3 Rol. D.VI prototypes, 200 Rol.D.VIa and 150 Rol. D.VIb aircraft ordered and built. Total 353 aircraft.
The Rol. D.VIa and D.VIb served in Jasta 23b,32b,35b,59 in Gruja 8b, and at least, Jasta 17, 33 and 78b.
The Rol. D.VIa entered service in early May 1918 and served to at least September 1918. The Rol. D.VIb entered service in June 1918 and served to the end of the war.
Blue skies,
Dan-San 8)

Thanks Dan, great work as usual!!! :-* :-*

JASTA75

[leo]

The DVI was ordered into production as a back up in case the Fokker DVII failed. The clinker-built fuselage presented some production problems, but other than that it was a fine airplane.

[Droops]

Dan-San, what is Gruja 8b? I've never seen that term before.

VBR,

John

[Soderbaum]

Hi John

The Gruja was a leader of mostly 2 to 5 Jastas who normally cordinated their flying activities within an specific area(Armekorps).

One reason for their establisment was the need to order more a/c(co-ordinate) to a "fight" because the enemy many times had more a/c in the air...

These groups were rather loose and units involved could easily be changed, for example when moving to other front areas...

It was common that one of the the Jasta commanders had this duty, but also some "merely" non-flyers could be Gruja...

So a leader of one of the Jagdgruppen(fighter groups) was called Gruja.

The first five Jagdgruppen were establish on 28 october 1917, later seven more were establish.

:
Gunnar

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Leo:

That is not correct Leo, the Rol.D.VIa was actually ordered before the Fok. D.VII.  The Fok. D.VI was ordered as a backup the the Fok. D.VII. Prior to the First Fighter Competition at Adlershof during the period of 21 January-12 February 1918, three aircraft had been chosen for production, they were the Fok. D.VII, Rol. D.VI and the SSW D.III. The Rol. D.VI had been approved for front line service on 9 February 1918, three days before the Fighter Competiton terminated.  As a result of the Competiton odrers were placed for the Rol. D.VIa, Fok. D.VII, SSW D.III and the Pfalz D.VIII.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Droops:

Jagdgruppen were ad hoc organizations orginally formed in August 1917. They came about as a need for control of the Jasta within an Armee. A senior officer, commanding one of the Jasta in the Armee would be designated "Führer der Jagdgruppen" and would be in nominal control of operations of all the units. In 1917 the Jagdgruppen were not necessarily numbered, but may be the leader's name, Armee or Korp name. They were of few as 2 Jasta,(Jagdgruppe Lille, Jasta 28w and37) and as many as eight,(Jagdgruppe "von Braun", Jasta13,14,16b,21s,22s,23b,32b and 34b).

On 10 october 1917, the formal organization was established and authorized with the title of "Führer der Jagdgruppen" Gruja. By 21 December 1917, the first five were established, Gruja 1 to 5. By 27 March 1918 the last of twelve, (Gruja 6-12), were established, Gruja 6.being the last. Gruja 8b was established on 28 February 1918 by order B.K.M.48148. It was Commanded by Oblt. Eduard von Schleich and was composed of Jasta 23b, 32b,35b and Prussian Jasta 59.

As a result of War Games conducted in late 1917 a doctrine was established for the deployment of Jagdstaffeln,
this led to the establishment of the Gruja and the two additional Jagdgeschwadern, Nr.2 and 3 on 2 February 1918.

These actions were preparatory the the "Battle of France" which was to commence on 21 March 1918.

The doctrine established how the air units were to be deployed and how they were to be used.

Because the Luftstreitkräfte lacked sufficient "qualified" officers, they could not establish more Jagdgeschwadern which were to be utilized at the Armee level. You will note that each of the attacking Armeen, 2.,17. and 18. each had a Jagdgeschwader. In addition they were each assigned Gruja which were subordinate the Jage and worked with the Armee Korp in each of the attacking Armeen. Another way of looking at the utilization was, the Jagdgeschwader were strategic, and the Gruja were tactical in their respective operations.

That will give some idea.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Soderbaum]

Hello

It seems that me and Dan-San has different explanations of what a Gruja is...hm...

According to an order by Kogenluft dated 28 Oct 1917 the first five Jagdgruppen were officialy establish with a staff.
The "leader" of these respective Jagdgruppen is in my meaning unoffically shortened Gruja...so a Jagdgruppe(unit) cant be called Gruja...the "Jagdgruppen" which existed before this day were so called unofficially units(compare with the KEKs)..

According to the same Kogenluftorder The Richthofen Geschwader should be called Jagdgeschwader Nr.1....

As appendix to this order "new" regulations for a commander of a Jagdgeschwader and Jagdgruppen were presented.

A different between a Jagdgruppe and a Jagdgeschwader was also that in German terms that a Jagdgeschwader was formed as a mobile(as for example the Kagohls were) unit.

As Dan-San pointed out the Jagdgeschwader was often an AOK unit and not under the direct command of the Kofl as the Grufl and Grujas were.

I dont believe in Dan-San statement that the amount of establish more Jagdgeschwadern were dependent of some so called lack of qualified officers...


Gunnar

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Soderbaum:
Gunnar,there is no abbreviation for Jagdgruppe in the official German List. It is Gruja and the number, ie Gruja 8b. It signifies both the unit and the leader, Just as Idflieg, Kofl Grufl, and others.
Before MvR's death, Jagdgeschwader Nr.1 was just that, Jagdgeschwader Nr.1. It did not become Jagdgeschwader Nr.1 Frhr.von Richthofen until after MvR's death and on Royal order 14 May 1918.
Blue skies,
Dan-San