Bishop and Naval 8

MikeW · 1 May 2002, 11:34 AM

I apologise in advance if this has been covered before, but I've come across a witness to one of Bishop's victories.

I have no axe to grind here, whether Bishop did or didn't is of no concern to me whatsoever, but I thought that the following extract from Australian ace Robert Little's log book would be of interest:_

Quote:

12-7-17 12.35pm While on Special Mission I observed a Nieuport west of Douai, we met and then went east together when I observed a formation of Nieuports fighting with some Albatros scouts. I joined in the fight. During the fight I saw Capt Bishop RFC shoot down an EA which crashed near Vitry.

Capt Bishop and myself then attacked another EA and during the the fight the German pilot wave a white handkerchief or something so I stopped firing at it but seeing that he turned east I opened fire on him. I think he was wounded he dive down and went away very low.

That's the 12th July, not the 7th December!

Little wasn't too hot on spelling or punctuation, that's his spelling, not mine.

What do you think Al?

Mike

Billy_Bishop · 1 May 2002, 02:52 PM

I have seen a copy of Bishop's combat report signed by Little. In fact, I have a Jpeg of it if any one wants to see it.

Someone sent it to me, though I forget who did. (sorry, my short term memory sucks...what short term memory???)

VBR,

Al Lowe

Ron_F · 1 May 2002, 08:28 PM

anyone taken the time to see who this might be?

ill try here shortly...

or, perhaps the german records say Little lied to cover up for BB? they were in cohoots! *

:

PS, send me the copy Al, ill add it to my BB stuff.

wings · 1 May 2002, 08:28 PM

How do we get access to these logbooks, and where is Bishop's?

Ron_F · 1 May 2002, 09:01 PM

ok,

just cked my sources using the grub st books and the OTF map.

no crashed,kia, or wounded in that area of Douai sector.

btw, Little's was recorded as an OOC....

(more fuel to the fire...) :

MikeW · 2 May 2002, 11:23 AM

Wings,

Log books are held in museums everywhere. Some people own logs. Lots of people have copies, especially ones that are relevant to their fields of interest. And don't forget, a lot of logs didn't survive.

It's really a matter of knowing who to ask. If it's Bishop, then you need to ask Al.

Ron,

I didn't put down all of Little's report. He claimed it as an OOC, backed up by Bishop and several other members of the flight.

I have found Little to be a quite remarkable observer, I believe if he said he saw something white waved, then he really did. I am surprised he held his fire though. Little was a very aggressive pilot and he used to get in really close, none of this "fired 50 rounds from 100 yards" crap!

Mike

2 May 2002, 02:13 PM

Mike,

I looked into this combat on the old forum, I cannot remember when, but it seems like years ago

I read somewhere that 13th Wing re worded the original CITAR so it looked more favourable to Bishop. I really do believe that this comabt holds the key to Bishop, in the sense of him being the genuine article or if his reputation was manufactured by the RFC.

In any event, Little did not think too highly of Bishop after their meeting. I am not sure if it was the two scout pilots ego's clashing or Little did not appreciate *being told to write the CITAR *in a certain way. All I know of Little is that he didn't think highly of those that were not of the right stuff. He maintained a high standard for himself and expected those around him to be of that standard also.

Somewhere there is a document from 13th Wing that will confirm this.... but where?

Andrew.

2 May 2002, 05:27 PM

Here is the CITAR for those interested,

Squadron : Naval No.8
Type : Sopwith Camel 6378
Armament : 2 X Vickers
Pilot : Flight Lt R.A. Little
Locality " Drocourt - Queant Line about Quiery La Motte
Date : 12th July 1917
Time : 1.00 PM
Duty : Special Mission
Height : 1000 ft

Remarks on Hostile Machine : Albatross Scout

Narrative : While on special mission I observed a Nieuport East of Roeux. We met and went East together when I observed a formation of Nieuports fighting with some Albatross Scouts. I joined in the fight.

During the fight I saw Capt Bishop shoot down an EA which crashed near Vitry en Artois. Capt Bishop and myself then attacked another EA together. The German pilot waved a white handkerchief during the fight so I stopped firing at him, but seeing that he was going East, I opened fire again. I think he was wounded.

Later I attacked another EA which got into a spin and went down out of control. I could not watch him for long as I was then attacking and being attacked by the other EA but Capt Bishop and others who took part in the engagement state that he was undoubtedly out of control.

(sgd) R.A. Little

cam

Billy_Bishop · 3 May 2002, 04:37 AM

MikeW · 3 May 2002, 09:34 AM

Little's CITAR reads almost the same as his log book entry. If, as Andrew says, someone in the past has suggested that Little was coerced into phrasing the CITAR in a particular way to appear favourable to Bishop, then why on earth did he write the same account in his log book.

No, I have "lived" with Little for several months whilst covering his part in the Sop Triplane story, if he said that's what happened in his log, I believe him.

Mike