Victoria Cross

terry · 2 February 2002, 06:38 AM

Hugh,
Don't we have a case here in Canada now where someone is trying to get a gong for his father, who rescued some US sailors back in WW2 ( and I think was appropriately decorated by the US government)?
With the creation of the "Commonwealth" VC's - Canada,Australia,etc.- I also wonder how long it will be before some politician tries to win favour with some group of voters by pushing for a retroactive VC.
Canada has bravery awards (Cross of Valour,Star of Courage,Medal of Bravery) and military gallantry awards (Victoria Cross, Star of Military Valour, Medal of Military Valour), but it appears that gongs awarded to Canadian troops for courage under fire in the Balkans, for example have been the "civilian" awards - for example, a Medal of Bravery even though the bullets were flying.
I may be wrong, Hugh, but can't the VC, SMV, and MMV be awarded even if Canada is not at war, but involved, in peacekeeping or other activities?

Hugh_A._Halliday · 2 February 2002, 10:42 PM

Terry, your post raises some interesting points. *To begin, there was the case of a man who saved the lives of American mariners about 55 years past, and a Coast Guard officer wrote him a letter of thanks. *In the year 2000 the man's son found the letter and began lobbying Canada and the US for a medal for his father. *The US gave one - Canada did not. *Son then went to newspapers to praise the Americans and bad-mouth Canada as a mean-spirited place that does not know how to recognize its heros. *All of which I think is pretty rotten because

(a) one good deed should get one medal - and if the Americans chose to hand out one then no more were needed.

(b) awards should be given out as close as possible to the event on the basis of contemporary recommendations, assessments and evidence. *They should NOT be awarded because the "recipient" happens to have lived longer than most and has a descendant pushy enough to go through this lobbying. *Who lobbies on behalf of the man who is childless or just not that loud ?

Canadian awards - I recommend you visit the website for Canadian Honours - http://www.gg.ca/honour_e.html - for fuller descriptions. *John Blatherwick is about to bring out the 5th edition of his book on the subject so you may wish to write him at 59 Courtney Crescent, New Westminster, British Columbia, V3L 4M1.

AIRFORCE magazine published a letter in Volume 25 No.2 (Summer 2001) with a lengthy complaint about awards (or lack thereof) to Canadian Air Force personnel for Kosovo operations; Volume 25 No.3 carried a guest editorial which took a look at those complaints (some of which were justified and some not). *If you do not subscribe to AIRFORCE, it costs $ 35.00 (Canadian) per year ($ 30.00 for Americans, $ 39.50 everywhere else) and single issues may be purchased for $ 6.00 (mailings to Canadian addresses) or $ 6.00 (U.S. addresses) or $ 10.00 (all other countries). Write to AIRFORCE, Box 2460, Station D, Ottawa, Ontario, K1P 5W6

Andrew_P · 2 February 2002, 11:19 PM

I think the website that features the petitioning for a VC for Simpson is
www.anzacs.org

There was an Australian politician who was campaiging for a VC to be awarded to Simpson and also two others from WW2(whose names I cannot recall) but I don't think many of her colleagues have been taking her seriously.

While many brave acts have gone unrewarded by the VC, I don't think there can be a retrospective look at acts of bravery.
Say for example if Albert Jacka was now awarded a VC for his actions at Pozieres overriding his MC, what's to stop every other relative of a Tom, Dick or Harry who won a medal other than a VC from petitioning to have the award upgraded.

Hate to think that would come about.

cam · 3 February 2002, 03:37 AM

Andrew,

>features the petitioning for a VC for Simpson

Simpson getting recognized with the highest military award is emotive as his actions represent what Australians feel are Australian values. What the government should do is give the current crop of new Australian medals value. Currently they are meaningless. They should give the Order of Australia ( is that the highest one ? ) to Simpson in a one off retroactive gesture as a way of saying this is what you have to do to get one and this is what the award embodies.

I dont think Simpson should get a VC, I think he should get the highest of the new Australian awards. I would probably give one of each medal to a person who fought for Australia in years past to give the medals value. Otherwise we will have them cheapened in the future just so that they can be filled and given out.

cam

terry · 3 February 2002, 04:29 AM

Hugh,
Regarding the Kosovo situation you mentioned, Canada, I believe had a squadron or so of CF-18's in action for the campaign. I didn't get a chance to see the AIR FORCE magazine articles, but could you briefly tell us just exactly what awards were given to Canadians?
I thought I read somewhere that there were very few gongs - perhaps a MSC for the CO, and a couple of MID's, but I'm really not sure. Again, it would be interesting to see what a similar USAF or USN squadron earned. I gather that the US still dishes out Air Medals,etc relatively lavishly.

terry · 3 February 2002, 04:58 AM

Hugh again, I just did a quick check of the website you named, and I see that Col.D.A.Davies, the Task Force Aviano CO, received a Meritorious Service Medal, as did one of his pilots Maj.R.P.F.Parker, who flew and often led 31 missions. Is that it?

Hugh_A._Halliday · 3 February 2002, 05:35 AM

Terry - those are the awards that were granted - the discussion in the two issues of AIRFORCE magazine went much further - starting with a complaint that it was too few and the reply that, while too few, the original complainant had unrealistic expectations. But surely you do not want me to transcribe the two items which, together, run to about 1,800 words. If you live in Canada, surely you can find copies in a public library, Air Force Association branch, or museum library.

Andrew_P · 3 February 2002, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Andrew,

>features the petitioning for a VC for Simpson

Simpson getting recognized with the highest military award is emotive as his actions represent what Australians feel are Australian values. What the government should do is give the current crop of new Australian medals value. Currently they are meaningless. They should give the Order of Australia ( is that the highest one ? ) to Simpson in a one off retroactive gesture as a way of saying this is what you have to do to get one and this is what the award embodies.

I dont think Simpson should get a VC, I think he should get the highest of the new Australian awards. I would probably give one * of each medal to a person who fought for Australia in years past to give the medals value. Otherwise we will have them cheapened in the future just so that they can be filled and given out.

cam

I've got no objection to him being awarded and Order of Australia or something similar, but can they be awarded posthumously?

It's just when I hear about the new Australian VC that I wonder how much meaning it will really have if it was awarded in a piecemeal fashion.

cam · 4 February 2002, 01:20 AM

Andrew,

>I've got no objection to him being awarded and Order of Australia
>or something similar, but can they be awarded posthumously?

I dont know. If it isnt they should make it a one off exception in the case of Simpson to make sure the award has value.

>It's just when I hear about the new Australian VC that
>I wonder how much meaning it will really have if it
>was awarded in a piecemeal fashion.

Yes I agree.

cam

terry · 4 February 2002, 04:20 AM

Hugh,
Sorry for delay - family obligations. No, I can track down the articles locally. My very reaction however (without reading the articles) is that for a reinforced squadron to fly hundreds of bombing missions over Kosovo, the sum of two MSM's seems a tad paltry.
Setting aside US unit award comparisons, perhaps it would be interesting to see what the RAF were given. Were there any "combat" decorations, ie. DFC's?