Victoria Cross

Barrett · 4 February 2002, 05:56 AM

I'm reliably informed that during the Bosnian/Kosovo flail the USAF awarded Silver and Bronze Stars for "combat support" in the US, including planning work. There's also speculation that Air Medals will be presented for "combat air patrols" over New York, DC, etc.
the latter are doing baaad things to readiness. The immense number of flight hours eat deeply into airframe and engine life and prevent meaningful training in more urgent realms. But it seems to be what We The People want done... :P

Hugh_A._Halliday · 4 February 2002, 12:57 PM

The second of the two articles in AIRFORCE does make comparisons with the RAF and USAF scale of awards.

Michael · 4 February 2002, 05:17 PM

I don't agree with retroactive awards. As any veteran will tell you, there are a lot more VC, DSOs MMs etc won than are awarded. To open that up is to turn awards into an even more political process than currently exists. (Robert Graves mentions that it was understood that any decorations would go to the Regular Army officers, who needed them for their careers).

But equally I disagree with retrospectively taking a medal away from a man (or woman), as happened with the MOH. The largest number were awards to a Maine Infantry regiment as incentive to re-enlist immediately before a battle. Okay, they shouldn't have been awarded - but they were. The British didn't strip Pte. O'Hea of his V.C. for uncoupling a blazing boxcar filled with ammunition during the Fenian Raids (the only V.C. won on Canadian soil). Likewise the several V.C.s awarded to the 2/24th during a small boat mishap in the Andaman Islands (including their surgeon - born in Quebec.)

Hugh_A._Halliday · 5 February 2002, 12:22 AM

Michael, the reason that *"the British didn't strip Pte. O'Hea of his V.C. for uncoupling a blazing boxcar filled with ammunition during the Fenian Raids (the only V.C. won on Canadian soil). *Likewise the several V.C.s awarded to the 2/24th during a small boat mishap " *because, at that time, the Warrant of the VC (the regulations governing its award) specifically provided for awards in such circumstances. *Mention of these specific awards provides an opportunity to mention some added facts.

(1) O'Hea's regiment, having secured his VC for the railway incident, tried that same year (1866) to obtain ANOTHER non-combat VC for one of its members (this time for heroism during a fire that devastated Quebec City). *They were turned down.

(2) The "non-combat" VCs (there were only about a dozen) were allowed at a time when the concept of the VC was still being developed, and many awards that might have been deemed appropriate (such as the DSO and Albert Medal) still had not been devised.

(3) Pretty well all gallantry awards have provision in their warrants for forfeiture. *I know of three certain cases of such forfeiture, all in the early 1920s *(one MC, one DFC, one AFC). *Going on memory of past readings, I do not believe a VC was ever forfeited, although there was some correspondence about what might have constituted grounds for such forfeiture. *In the end, either Edward VII or George V in effect stated that, "were a man to be hanged for murder, he should nevertheless be allowed to wear his VC to to scaffold." *There is an instance of a George Medal being awarded and then cancelled about 1952; sorry, but I do not have sufficient details to either describe or comment on this case at the present time.

Barrett - I am intrigued by the suggestion that Air Medals might be awarded for the standing air patrols off the East Coast. *Will you keep us posted on this ? *There is already one case of an American DFC having been awarded to the ground controller who successfully landed a pilotless recce aircraft after it had been damaged.

Andrew and Cam - I find it odd that consideration of the first "Australianized" VC be given to a man whose deeds took place in 1915. *The argument is "To set a standard" - but why not trust the current committees to award it to a suitable contemporary candidate when the opportunity arises ? *I do not know anything about the standards of Australian gallantry awards, but the Canadian bravery decorations, established in 1972, have an interesting history. The Medal of Bravery has been handed out far too often and there seems to be no attempt to increase the standard; the Star of Courage has also been awarded a bit too generously, and there may be some attempts to improve on this situation. *But the Cross of Valour has always been awarded for really breath-taking courage and an original standard of George Cross equivalency has been maintained.

When the Canadian bravery awards were being planned, the original idea was to call the highest one the Kootenay Cross, because even before the award was instituted it was obvious that the first two recipients would be two sailors aboard HMCS KOOTENAY who had died at their posts during a ship fire. *And they were the first recipients of the Cross of Valour.

Another example of the balancing acts that committees perform in granting awards - consider a lady who, some three years died defending her children from a cougar attack. *She was awarded a posthumous Star of Courage (not a Cross of Valour). *The reasons why one award rather than another are never stated, but in this case I can imagine the committee members looking at the facts and thinking, "If she had been defending strangers, or even friends, this might have been a Cross of Valour exploit. *But as she was looking out for her own children, and was thus likely driven by maternal motives as much as disinterested bravery, the Star of Courage is more appropriate."

Michael · 5 February 2002, 04:19 AM

Point taken, Hugh. *But the British government could have followed the U.S. precedent. *I agree that quite apart from changes in the Warrant, the introduction of alternative awards made it a lot more difficult to win the V.C.

The cougar incident is interesting, as I recall that a brother and sister both received the Albert Medal c. 1909 in a cougar attack in B.C. They defended each other, and both survived. *The sister lived to a ripe old age and if I recall correctly exchanged for a George Cross.

I don't have my sources to hand, but I know that several V.C.s have been forfeited - usually on criminal conviction by the civil authorities. Most of them, if not all, were during the 19th Century, and I think one was for the Second Afghan War.
Abbott and Tamplin's British Gallantry Awards would give the details. I have it at home.

LizMilne · 5 February 2002, 10:35 AM

The Victoria Cross has been forfeited eight times, under Clause 15 of the 1856 Warrant. *Crook discusses the cases and lists the 'crimes' without naming the men involved. *The Imperial War Museums' Handbook of the VC & the GC lists names as well. *In any event, virtually every list of Victoria Cross recipients includes the names of all eight, sometimes noting the subsequent forfeiture, sometimes not. The total of 1354 VCs awarded includes these eight.

The first forfeiture was in 1861, the most recent in 1908.

The 'crimes' were:
1 Desertion to evade investigation of a disgraceful offence (this may or may not have involved homosexual activity, my source for this suggestion is not authoratative-an undocumented newspaper article.)
2 Theft of a cow
3 Theft of a comrade's medals
4 Theft of ten bushels of oats
5 Desertion on active service, theft of a horse and accoutrements
6 Theft and embezzlement from an officer
7 Bigamy
8 Theft of iron

In every case the cross itself remained the recipient's property, and as mentioned the names still appear on virtually all the lists.

Hugh_A._Halliday · 5 February 2002, 12:22 PM

My answers on the VC would be faster (and more informed) if I had a copy of Crook's book at home, rather than access via a non-lending library on the other side of the city. *If anyone knows of a copy for sale, let me know (I suspect it will be very expensive).

The moral lapses that led to forfeiture of VCs are intriguing, for the first Canadian recipient (Alexander Dunn, VC won at charge of the Light Brigade) turned out to be a brave lieutenant and captain but a disaster at any higher rank. *When given commend of a regiment, he proved popular with the men but drill and discipline ceased to have meaning. *Dunn himself was a notorious skirt chaser who once ran off with his Commanding Officer's wife and was disappointed when the CO refused to divorce her. *He was reputedly killed in a hunting accident in Ethiopia; some thought he had been murdered by another officer at whose wife Dunn had made a pass.

Barrett · 5 February 2002, 12:45 PM

Hugh: Wow! Reminds me of Boyington's famous (cynical) sentiment: Show me a hero & I'll show you a bum.
Crooks' book is advertised on ABE.com; mine came from The Book Shop (10 commercial Rd. Kirkstall, Leeds) in a couple of weeks via Roy & Pippa Brook. don't know if they have another copy but they're at:

Book.Shop@btinternet.com

Mention me as a happy customer.

LizMilne · 5 February 2002, 01:34 PM

Hugh,
Just in case you do not have a list of forfeitures by name, Dunn is not on it! *Skirt chasing would not seem to qualify as 'disgraceful'. *If being ineffective as a senior officer were grounds for forfeiture Buller would not have retained his VC and I am sure there would have been other candidates!

There is in fact only one officer amongst the eight forfeitures (he of the disgraceful conduct), one sergeant, five privates and a gunner.

Good luck finding a copy of Crook. *As you may have guessed I keep mine handy. *Picked it up mail order many years ago from a military book dealer in England.

Michael · 5 February 2002, 04:55 PM

A & T give the following

Pte. V. Bambrick 60th - Indian Mutiny - forfeited 1863

Gnr. J. Collis - R.H.A. - 2nd Afghan War - 1895 - Bigamy

Pte. F. Corbett - K.R.R.C. - Egypt 1882 - 1884

Mid. E. St. J. Daniel - R.N. - Crimea - 1861 - Desertion

Pte. T. Lane - 67th - China 1860 - 1881

Sgt. J. McGuire - 1 Bengal Fus. - Indian Mutiny - 1862

Pte. M. Murphy - Mil. Train - Indian Mutiny - 1872

Pte. G. Ravenhill - R.Scots Fus. - Boer War - 1908