Board games v. computer games v. miniatures games

[Lufbery]

All,

Up to a few months ago, I never even knew that there were board games simulating WWI combat. Then people here started posting about them and I became more interested. My main focus up till now has been on WWI computer games -- especially Red Baron 3D.

So, I heard some great things about Blue Max and am on my way to acquiring a copy. I've also found out more about Dawn Patrol and may look into it in the future. Meanwhile, I've read a bit about some miniatures versions of board games (principally Blue Max again), and that seems like fun.

In the end, though, I'm wondering why board games have such a hold on people. What do they offer that computer games don't? What are the pros and cons of each type of game?

A lot of folks have mentioned solitare WWI board games. How do those work, and how do they compare to solitare play on the computer?

Just curious,

[Kirk]

There are pluses and minuses to each type of game. For a lot of people in the same age bracket as me (early 40's) our interest in WWI aviation was spawned by things like books, movies (The Blue Max), and games such as Richthofen's War. My buddies and I spent hours and hours moving our counters around the board pretending we were Richthofen, Ball, Rickenbacker, etc. For me tabletop games have three advantages over their computer brethren. First, tabletop games are timeless. If I buy Dawn Patrol (DP) or Richthofen's War (RW) I know I'll be able to play them 20 years from now. Can the same be said for Red Baron 3D? Second, tabletop games can be adjusted to suit the tastes of the players. I can change the rules to RW or DP however I want to make them more enjoyable to me. As an example, a friend and I are in the process of revising Richthofen's War to include aspents of Dawn Patrol and Canvas Falcons. Then we'll play games via e-mail. Also we're doing research to create more aircraft for Dawn Patrol and Richthofen's War. Sometimes I don't know what I enjoy more, playing the games or reading books and doing the research. With a computer game you're pretty much stuck with whatever the programmer gives you. Lastly, tabletop games are inherently social. There's nothing like getting a bunch of WWI aviation enthusaists around a table, trading stories and playing a game. Heck, I don't know what's more enjoyable, playing the game or just having an excuse to get together with a bunch of friends that have the same interests as me. Until the advent of online gaming, computer games were inherently solitary activities. Even with online gaming, seeing some comment appear on a screen isn't as fun as trading a laugh or story with friends in the same room.
Of course computer games have their advantages as well. Games don't take as long, you don't need to find other people to play with, and (as far as WWI aviation anyway) they provide a more realistic representation of flying than moving cardboard squares around a flat board.
I guess in a nutshell each has their own advantages and I enjoy each for their own reasons. Just because we live in a computer age is no reason to abandon or avoid tabletop games and the enjoyment they provide.
If you want a WWI aviation game that provides a quick game and some fun, try Richthofen's War. It's long out of print but can be had for as little as $5 at Ebay. Granted it's not very accurate when compared to Dawn Patrol or other games, but it's fun, plays in about 20 minutes (for a simple one on one matchup), and is a great introduction to WWI aviation gaming. That's how I plan on introducing my son to WWI aviation gaming once he grows up a little more.
Give a tabletop game like Dawn Patrol or Richthofen's War a try. Then we can trade airplane data, new rules we've tried, etc.

[VictorVonDoom]

Wow Kirk...
You impressed me a lot.
I had always thought that only a computer game could be a good choiche for play a WW1 game...
Now im changing my mind and i would try a board game.
I'll look for Richthfen's War.

Greetings!
I have played many computer games and many, many board games and it boils down to one thing. I enjoy board games, but with computer games I'm playing only the machine and am very often in a dexterity contest rather than a mental challenge. I can't get the flavor of the airplane off the computer game because I'm so busy trying not to crash it (a facet which I don't consider part of the flavor when it is the MAJOR facet of the game). They just aren't any fun. And a machine is a lousy gaming buddy. How can you laugh with and jaw with a damned computer?
But having a buddy over and playing face to face, now there's something else. You not only enjoy the game, and get the feel of the item, but you have to good vibes of a very positive social interaction.
I walk away from a computer simulation wondering why I bothered in the first place. I walk away from a good board game looking forward to the next one.
And if you can't find a gaming buddy, you get out of your easy chair and find someone. I have personally created most of my competition by introducing them to wargames and teaching them games (many many years ago). No effort, no payback.

Enjoy

Joe

[Lufbery]

Kirk and Joe,

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I really like flights sims, and play that kind of computer game almost exclusive of any other. The general consensus among real pilots is that sims do a good job of approximating the mechanics of flight even if they don't capture the feeling of flight.

I like the restricted views and the fact that I can hide from a foe in the clouds (in a good game anyway) and sneak up on him. I also like that I can apply real-world tactics and maneuvers with a good degree of success in a flight sim. How do board games handle that aspect of WWI air combat? I realize that rules are different depending on the game, but can you hide from your opponents? Are maneuvers fluid?

Anyway, I'm intrigued by WWI aviation board games. We'll see what happens when I get Blue Max.

Regards,

Greetings!
It is rare if even possible to get the limited-intelligence effects available to a computer flight sim in a board game. You and your opponent can see the entire board and everything on it. You can't re-create a situation (without a referee) where you can see him but he can't see you, though there are initiative rules and the like that create the "events" of such an ocurrance. For example, the player can see you, but because his pilot can't, his aircraft moves first (thus achieving target status).
Comparing how aircraft work in computer sims with board and chart games is often an apples/oranges thing. The same things get created, but the look and feel is different. It is much like comparing GO with moving actual armies on actual terrain. No, you can't simulate an armored division, but the sweep of grand strategy is there in its purest form, and you've lost nothing in the abstractions.
Aircraft in CF, for example, can perform every maneuver that they can in a computer flight sim. But whereas in the flight sim you see the results of your movement, in the board game you see the effects of speed/drag/gravity actually physically acting upon your airplane (conveniently and quietly crunched by a computer so you never have to look at them). In the computer sim you can throw your airplane out of control, but in the board game you will know exactly WHY your airplane went out of control (no suppositions).
They're different enough to where direct comparision is really not a way to approach it.

Enjoy

Joe

[Zif]

??? hey ?

a board game is a board game (indeed Blue Max is really fun, and quite simple to play) , but...

with a simulator (maybe against human opponents) is another story : you personally flew the plane, choosing were to go in real time (with no time to decide in dangerous situations) and the personal ability and experience are very important.

The limitation of a board game (no real time) is that it do not mention the feelings of a pilot, like fear and immediate reactions to a lot of situation.

I love board games too, don't misunderstand, but I love the pc simulation for landscapes, sound and so and... WWI dogfight SIMULATION

[Kirk]

I think it all comes down to what you're looking for. I think a computer simulation is probably a better recreation of actual air combat, but board games with friends provides a different kind of enjoyment. A computer does a better job of recreating the split second decisions a fighter pilot needs to make and can recreate things like surprise, weather, etc. much better than any boardgame. Some people think a computer game is just a hand-eye coordination exercise. Well, that's probably a lot closer to the way it really is (or was in the case of WWI combat) than any boardgame.
Personally, I enjoy both for different reasons. The biggest advantage a computer has is the fact it's always there, ready to play. Unless you can find a few buddies with the same interests, or can find a webgame on the 'net, you're pretty much stuck playing boardgames solitaire. If you're someone like me that doesn't live in a large metropolitan area, finding opponents is near impossible. And if you're also someone like me that has interests apart from WWI aviation, you may not want to have to spend an inordinate amount of time searching for opponents. Your best bet as far as playing a WWI boardgame via the web is probably Dawn Patrol. There are numerous websites from various "squadrons" that play the game. There are also webgames that you can become a part of. There's even a newsletter called, appropriately enough, The Aerodrome if you decide to become a member of the Fight in the Skies (FITS) society. FITS was the predecessor to Dawn Patrol.
In a nutshell, it just all comes down to what provides you with the most enjoyment. As is the case with computer games, all board games are different. If you really want to delve into the physics of why an airplane does what it does, and don't mind taking a few hours to replicate a couple minutes of real time, Canvas Falcons is for you. If you want a game that gets you quickly in the action, without a lot of thought to how aircraft really fly, Richthofen's War is your game. If you want a game that's somewhere in between that you can find web opponents for, Dawn Patrol is probably your game. Regardless of your choice, the operative word is fun. If you're not having fun, give something else a try.

You hit everything 100% right on the head.

Joe

[Lufbery]

How about miniatures games? Do any of you guys play them? I've seen some photos of some Blue Max miniatures games using 1/72 scale models. I suppose you could also use 1:144 scale planes and take up less room.

Regards,