Jasta 5 on 4 Nov 1918....

[Soderbaum]

Hi all

According to an official German source Jasta 5 destroyed 4 enemy aircraft in a single battle at Mormal wood this day, time ca 11:45....

I wonder if anyone knews which pilots except Könnecke and possible Schmidt who were involved in this fight..?

I also wonder if anyone possible can identify the probably British unit/units which had this high losses in this area and time...?
Probably one of the aircraft was a DH 4/DH 9..

???
Gunnar

[Ira_Silverman]

Hi Gunnar,

Lots of activity, that day.

I did a search in Henshaw: The Sky Their Battlefield, and although there were significant DH4/DH9/DH9A losses that day, time and location, it would appear, narrow it down to 80 squadron, flying Sopwith Camels.

The entries are as follows:

C8382 Sopwith Camel 80 Sqn
**OP combat? FORET DE MORMAL shot up dam returned a'dr OK (Capt HA Whistler) left 10-15 am

D9635 Sopwith Camel 80 Sqn
**OP left 10-15am combat with EA shot down FORET DE MORMAL MIA(2Lt HCR Grant KIA)

F2139 Sopwith Camel 80 Sqn
**OP left 6-05am FORET DE MORMAL combat shot up dam OK (2Lt GA Hodgetts)

F6110 Sopwith Camel 80 Sqn
**OP left 10-15am combat? FORET DE MORMAL MIA but OK? (Lt RC Fyson)

Except for F2139, this seems to match time and location.

27Sqn (DH9) lost 5 a/cs that day near MAUBEUGE, VALENCIENNES AND SYMPHOMEN, but they took off from their airfield at 12-25PM, hence no match.

Hope this is of some help.

Best regards,

Ira

[Frank_Olynyk]

Gunnar,
I have the four aircraft claimed as Bristol Fighters, all at 1145 over Forêt de Mormal. The claimants were Ltn Otto Könnecke (34), Uffz. Leicht (4), and Vfw. Gustav Praclic (1, 2). Apparently the Kofl 2 daily report does not state the type claimed, and only mentions Könnecke. The other names, and the type come from an undated report of Praclic. Since the 80 Squadron losses match the location and date, the aircraft type claimed by the Germans is most likely wrong. I will have to check further on the sources.

Frank.

[Soderbaum]

Oh thanks very much Ira and Frank...!

These additions where very worthful...!

Otherwise perhaps 80 sq were not alone in the area, they were perhaps flying escorts for some DH 2s or similair...?

I eagerly awaiting if you can find some more information in your files Frank..


Gunnar

[Regulus]

Gunnar,

There was also a claim it seems by Flg. Hoffmann of Jasta 24 at 11.40 hours over Mormal wood, but it was not confirmed.

VBR from Regulus :

[Soderbaum]

Good hint Regulus..!

It is getting more and more interesting(at least for me.. .)

Because of your answer I began to recheck the KTB(War Diary) of Jasta 24 which was published by Rick Duiven in Cross & Cockade US Vol 21/3 from 1980...

Rick wrote from the KTB: "At 11:40 on 4 November, three Bristol Fighters were shot down over Mormal woods. Two of these enemy aircraft were downed by an unknown Jasta(hm..), but one was apparently shot down by Flg Hoffmann. Both Salzwedel and Altemeier observed the descent of the third Bristol but they could not be sure that it was the one shot down by Hoffman. Neither pilot was able to witness the enemys crash. Since this victory was questionable, no claim was submitted.
A short time later at 12:07, Ungewitter flamed a Sopwith Dolphin. It crashed West of Berlaimont, on the east side of the GREAT WOOD...This was his seventh victory and it was witnessed by Offst Bansmer of Jasta 44. Ungewitters victim was probably Lt WJ Curtis of 87 sq, who was the only Dolphin pilot lost this date."

So it seems that Jasta 5, Jasta 24 and Jasta 44 were involved in the fight.
Probably also one Bristol Fighter squadron, possible 87 sq and perhaps a DH 4 squadron and with certain 80 sq...!?

:
Gunnar

[Rick]

Gunnar,

22 years ago I was still sane enough to do some decent work!!!!!!!! R.

[Ira_Silverman]

Hi all,

Returning to the actions of 4 November 1918 in The Sky Their Battlefield, I can't find a match for time and/or location for either Bristol Fighters or a Sopwith Dolphin.

What I do find is:

Bristol Fighters

E2583 Bristol F2B 48 Sqn
**OP TOURNAI-ATH combat ov LESSINES 3-15pm MIA(Lt IO Gaze POW/2Lt CW Newstead POW) left 1-45pm

E2592 Bristol F2B 48 Sqn
**OP TOURNAI-ATH combat ov LESSINES 3-15pm MIA(Lt JF McNamara POW/2Lt J Pugh POW) left 1-45pm

E2625 Bristol F2B 48 Sqn
**OP TOURNAI-ATH combat ov LESSINES 3-15pm MIA(Capt AA Harcourt-Vernon POW/2Lt DM Dee POW) left 1-45pm

D7948 Bristol F2B 62 Sqn
**EscOP combat with2EA[+] on tail sw MONS 8-50am MIA(Lt FCD Scott KIA/2Lt C Rigby KIA) had just got EA then seen go down control

E2513 Bristol F2B 62 Sqn
**EscOP combat with EA sw MONS 8-50am then seen going down with wing broken MIA(Lt F Sumsion KIA/Capt WG Walford KIA) [possible F2b claim combat VIEUX RENGTS? 9-15am Ltn H Lange Ja26]

Sopwith Dolphin

C8165 Sopwith Dolphin 87 Sqn
**OP left 9am shot down in flames over LE QUESNOY MIA(2Lt HG Curtiss KIA [?combat SCHELDEWINDEKE ObFlg A Buhl MFJaIV]

So, I don't find combat over MORMAL WOOD, and I don't see action at 11-45am.

Any ideas,

VBR,

Ira (who regrets only adding to the confusion on this day of battle)

[Soderbaum]

Hi Ira

You certainly added to more cunfusions...

Otherwise I wonder if any of the following sources says anything about this "battle"..?

-The War Diary from 80 sq ought to have some notes..?

-Possible there exists some combat reports from 80 sq..?

-The wing which included 80 sq ought to have both orders for the days activities and possible reports on what happened..??

We can possible exclude 87 sq, as they seems to have been fighting over the Flanders area...

It is interesting to note that both the Saxon Jastas 24 and 44 were joining in the fight from the 18 German Army...

Does anyone knew anything about the possible British sources mentioned above..?

:-/
Gunnar