Who shot down the highest number of fighters?

[Romani]

Greetings, considering that a good number of the victories achieved by the highest scoring aces were two seaters, I wonder wich aces, among those in the Western front, shot down the highest number of enemy fighters. To judge the relative performance it would be good to know what planes used those aces, and wich fighters flew at the time his opponents.

In example, a pilot that flew in Albatros DIII against British pusher fighters wouldn't have the same merit as one that managed to score victories against Camels and SE5a flying in an Albatros DVa or Pfalz DIII.

I think it would be interesting to know whoe where the best in a dogfight.

[Lufbery]

Greetings, considering that a good number of the victories achieved by the highest scoring aces were two seaters, I wonder wich aces, among those in the Western front, shot down the highest number of enemy fighters. To judge the relative performance it would be good to know what planes used those aces, and wich fighters flew at the time his opponents.

In example, a pilot that flew *in Albatros DIII against British pusher fighters wouldn't have the same merit as one that managed to score victories against Camels and SE5a flying in an Albatros DVa or Pfalz DIII.

I think it would be interesting to know whoe where the best in a dogfight.

It would indeed be interesting to know who was the best dogfighter, but I bet it would be impossible to determine. We tend to assume that two-seaters were easier to bring down than fighters, but most pilot accounts that I've read indicate that the rear seat gunner was a major deterrent, and two-seaters were treated with respect by pilots trying to shoot them down. Not to mention that two-seaters were more valuable targets than fighters and therefore were probably targeted more often by opposing fighters.

I'd also point out that (1) a lot of fighters went down after only one pass, and/or without seeing their assailant, and (2) most air combat involved many aircraft all at once, and not one-on-one stuff.

Having said all of that, there were some great examples of aerial combat skill that have been documented. One was Voss's last flight in a Dr.1 vs. seven SE5s. Another was Guynemer and Udet (I think) which ended in a draw when the German's guns jammed and the Frenchman saluted and flew off.

Regards,

[Lufbery]

All,

As an aside, this could become a messy discussion as all discussions regarding victories seems to on this board.

Having said that, I wonder what it would look like if we were to examine losses of different aircraft types during the war and how they were lost.

Regards,

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Romani:
In checking the listing in "Mein Fliegerleben", Oblt. Ernst Udet had 39 of his 62 victories against fighters.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[leo]

I would think the primary job of a fighter pilot would have been to bring down the two seaters more so than bringing down enemy fighters and would have been more highly regarded for having done so.

[Romani]

Thanks Dan-San:

Udet was one of the names that came to mind, and now that I recall, the best dogfighter ace of the
war was probably Guynemer, considered that he won in his epic duel with Udet (as Udet himself admitted)
and that in the opinion of McCudden, Guynemer was a better pilot than himself, after flight trials involving mock up combat, the story is told in "The friendless sky" by Alexander Mckee ( as a side note, how you people rate that book). McCudden tested the new S.E.5 against Guynemer in a SPAD VII presumably, I don't think the SPAD XIII was out of the drawing board at the time. That opens another topic: wasn't the SPAD VII outdated by the summer of 1917. What I find puzzling is that if the SPAD was that good, how come it's regarded as superceded by the Albatros DIII? Same can be said for the Sopwith Pup, maybe in the end what really counts is having twin machineguns
Keeping on this thread, it's curious that Francesco Baracca preferred the SVII to the SXIII, though I suspect it might be due to similar reasons as had McCudden to hang onto the Sopwith Pup. As is tol in McKee book, McCudden knew "that the Albatros DIII and DV would always be superior to the pup until 3,500 meters...but that 8,000 meters, the Pup could turn in half the space that an Albatros could (due to the smaller wing load of the Pup)"
War on the Italian front was different, flying over the Alps and that. Maybe the SVII was more agile at high altitudes because it had a lower wing load?


Back to the original question. I know that shooting down fighters win headlines, but shooting down two-seaters wins war. I just wanted to know who was the ace that claimed most enemy fighters shot down. From this we could guess who where the best dogfighting aces, so far we have Guynemer, Udet and Voss.

And finally, what made Von Richthofen special? What was the secret of his victories? He was a very good shot, perhaps not as good as Fonck, but he seems to have been a mediocre pilot, and he, as far as I know, cannot compare with master Boelcke at tactics. How good was MvR as squadron commander?

Food for thought.

Thanks.

[Gregvan]

Romani:

Antiquated BE2's , Caudrons and Farmans aside, a well-flown two-seater could be a tough opponent for any fighter. Besides, the fighter pilot's main purpose was to prevent the enemy's two-seaters and bombers from accomplishing their missions. I think a quote from Lothar von Richthofen (writing after the war) would be appropriate here:

"For an experienced combat pilot, it is simplest to attack only single-seaters. If you fly skillfully, the other pilot never even gets a chance to fire. You always stay behind your opponent who can only fire straight ahead. Most of the 'aces' always shot down more single-seaters than two-seaters; Manfred and I were the only ones who hadn't. Attacking a two-seater is very unpleasant; namely, they shoot towards the rear as well, and that's where you always attack from. What's more the enemy was using tracer ammunition so that, during the attack, you were always flying in the visible sheath of fire from the enemy's machine guns. From the left and from the right, you saw enemy bullets rushing at you. At any rate, very few pilots could stay calm and take quiet aim in this exciting situation.Even those who could preferred single-seaters, nevertheless..."

Now, there are those who might say Lothar is exaggerating the danger from two-seaters, and state that Manfred and Lothar got such large scores by shooting down "helpless" BE2's whilst flying superior aircraft. However, Lothar's victory list in ATL shows seven Bristol F2B's, one BF2a, and three DH9's at least - and those aircraft were fast, well-armed machines.
Just thought you might like to hear Lothar's opinion on this topic.

Greg

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Romani:
I was not aware of McCudden flying a Sopwith Pup in combat until I re-read Christofer Cole's magnificant account of James McCudden. I had forgot the he flew a refresher stint with 66 Squadron flying Sopwith Pups. Although he did not get any confirmed victories he regained his confidence.
When capt.James McCudden joined 56 Squadron on 14 August 1917, they were equipped with the S.E.5a. Mc Cudden never flew an S.E.5 in combat. McCudden had several things going for him, he had been a mechanic and he understood engines,and how to get the most out of them, He was also a very good pilot. Most of all he was a tactician and knew how to set up the enemy aircraft, finally he was a patient hunter who would take the time to set up his foe to maximize his advantage. Also he was a leader who took care of his Flight in combat.
You asked what made MvR special? He was not a good pilot like Udet, he used his airplane as a tool to attack and destroy his enemy. He had cool nerve, courage and confidence in his ability to destroy the enemy. He was a man with the hunter instinct, and a damned good shot! And finally a LEADER who through example instilled these qualities into his subordinates. When MvR took over Jasta 11, it had no victories, in a very short time they all began to score victories. He taught them how and showed the pilots how to do it, He lead by example, Mannock is an example of this kind of leadership. Billy Bishop was not in this cateory. Bishop, and Ball were loners who preffered to fly alone.
The S.E.5a was in my opinion the best Allied aircraft to come out of WW1. It's only drawback was it's arament. The Brazier built Hispano-Suiza 200-220 hp geared engine with it's improperly heat treated reduction gears prevented it from out shining the Sopwith 1F1 Camel. The direct drive Wolseley "Viper" version was a compromise, it gave it very good performance but not quite what the geared engine could do. I have often wondered what would have happened with the 300 hp Hispano-Suiza H engine. It could have pushed the S.E.5a close to 150 mph!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Romani]

Well, I'll keep this thread open for those that want to do the accounting of determining wich aces shot down the highest number of fighters.

There arose some interesting side topics, the accounts I've read led you to believe two-seaters were easy game, it appears to be it wasn't so easy, perhaps the observer MGs didn't shoot down many fighters, but they were a powerful deterrent.

And after all, Guynemer was most probably killed by an observer bullet, and Richthofen very nearly so. IIRC he was also shot down by an observer once before, when his engine was hit.


I'll start new threads on the other topics in the appropiate forums, I request your forgiveness in advance for beating the dead horse of the SE5a engines, for example

Thanks to all, gentlemen.

Another interesting account of an attack on a two-seater, this time by Roy King from Arthur Cobby's book;

"We had only been flying another few minutes, when we saw an SE having a go at an LVG. Bo (King) went down to lend a hand, the SE pulled out in a zoom and cleared off to our side of the line. He must have though we were the enemy. Bo opened up from *in front of the two-seater, which immediately started going around in a circle. It is difficult to hit a machine when it starts doing this, and Bo had all his work cut out to get into position. Finally he again got in front of it, and fired a long burst from close up, then just managed to get out of the way without colliding with it. The LVG went into a steep dive and came out lower down, with the pilot apparently wounded. He tried to land, but overturned and crashed."




cam