OTF controversy - German scores

[Rick]

Terry,

* *Your 'problem' as I see it is that you take ATL as a little too gospel. *i.e., if it ain't there there it didn't happen. *Its way to easy to fall into the trap of trying to match who-got-who. *Especially in a book, it is better to err on the side of caution and omit a 'victim' rather than put in the wrong one. *We followed the same course in TJC. *However, let me share a little of my own research on Piechulek (for example).

22Nov17 1st Kest 5 *Nieuport Dammerkirch (French)

5Jan18 2nd Jasta 41 Balloon S. S. Die
64e Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. Millet & Adj. Aubray, both OK

5Mar18 3rd (Jasta 56, as are the rest) DH 4 Schleiff claimed an RE 8, so were they RE 8 or DH 4 or both?

13Mar18 4th SE 5 10.30 NE Gonnelieu
#C.1070, 24 Sqn. RFC, 2/Lt. EA Whitehead,KIA

17Mar18 5th Bristol F.2b 16.00 Dernpise *Schleiff also claimed an F2b at 16.25 at Bony. *48 Sqn. RFC lost an F2b.

2Apr18 6th Bristol F.2b 9.40 Vaure Wood. *Dannemann also claimed an F2b at Warfussee, no time given. *11, 22, and 48 Sqn. RAF lost F2b's. *JG I also had F2b claims. *There were also some AWFK 8 losses. *?

1Jul18 7th DH 4 9.20 Ruddevoorde *#A.8045, 25 Sqn. RAF, Lt. GE Dobeson, & 2/Lt. JE Piling, KIAs

2Jul18 8th Bristol F.2b 9.40 Wervicq, #D.8090, 20 Sqn. RAF, *Lt HC McCreary & Sgt. W Barton, KIAs

19Jul18 9th DH 4 15.40 Pilkem, #D.8380, 25 Sqn. RAF, Capt. E Waterlow, & Lt. JM Mackie, KIAs

30Jul18 10th Bristol F2b, 8.45 Kemmel, #C.904, 20 Sqn. RAF, Lt. GH Zellers & Sgt. JD Cormack, KIAs

25Sep18 11th Camel, 18.50 Kortemark, #E.5485, 213 Sqn. RAF, 2/Lt. G. Illiff, KIA

27Sep18 12th, Camel, 12.50 NW Torhout, #E.1549, 65 Sqn. RAF, 2/Lt. RO Campbell, KIA

28Sep18 13th DH 4 Wervicq, #A.7924, 217 Sqn. RAF, 1/Lt. JE Gregory & 2/Lt. E. Martin-Bell, KIAs

4Oct18 14th Hanriot 7.30 Beveren, 11e Esc. Belgm., Sgt. Max Marlin, KIA

* * * Now, having provided this data, I immediately open myself up to attack. *"He couldn't have gotten Smith because Müller did." * Or "213 Sqn. RAF was at Verdun not Gent." *You get the idea.

Rick

Thanks Rammjaeger and Rick. That's why I enjoy this forum so much. Lots of expertise at hand. Rick, actually I realise that the Grub Street books are excellent, but that in no way are they "bibles". Thanks for your help.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Terry McCormick:
You can not discuss any subject seriously, when the listener does not or refuses to listen to your arguments.
Patrick Kennedy has his own agenda, and refuses to accept any other view point, simply put his is anti-British. I was amazed at how much time was wasted by Russel Gannon in his responses to Patrick Kennedy. I found it to be a gross waste of my time. At my age, I can find a billion other things to do that are more worth while.
IMHO I believe Mr.Kevin Kelly is doing the same thing espousing a lot of bs. The German were/are excellent record keepers. They did not acknowledge multiple claims/ shared victories, only one guy got the victory. A lot of the claims where the Brit or Frenchman landed in his own lines were not confirmed. If they landed in Allied territory they had to be confirmed by some forward observer, infantry, artillery, whatever. When a victory is awarded, it was CONFIRMED!
The game of matching victories is very difficult at best, there are some essential things that you must have to do this,
they are, at a minimum:
1. Order of Battle for both sides. listing units and airfields,
Army and Corps boundaries with front lines and dates.
2. Maps of France, large scale with all the towns and VILLAGES. The Michelin 1cm=2km are excellent!
3. A book of French towns, villages with locations. Villers for example is useless, there is 111 of them, you need the full name of the town, i.e. Villers-sire-Nicole.
4. A listing of the new and old names of French town and villages during 1914-1918.
5. The Action report that gives names, locations and time.
6. A whole lot of patience and time to search.
7. Double check your findings, make sure it fits.
8. You might find 10% if you are lucky.
The "LINES" Grub Street books are great sources, but they are not wholly accurate. In a discussion with Norman Franks at Rick Duiven's home several years ago, Franks was not concerned with the errors in the books, he was concerned with getting the book out! So as Rick said, "They are not gospel"
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Regulus]

This is what I call an interesting discussion. We can all learn of it.
And BTW, talking bout gaps ? You should look once at the Belgian aces and their 'kills'. And they can not say that it where Austro-Hungarians planes they shot down. I must say that on a few pilots I have personally very serious doubts on what their real scores must have been.
Of course let's face it also, concerning the losses of KEK's, Schusta's, Schlasta's there is still a lot to be published.
But would we Belgians have been specialised in these units ? :

[Cigogne]

I know that you have all seen the "Mentioned in Despatches" debate... BUT did any of you read the article by Peter Fedders called "Fatalities of German Airmen as a Measure of Relative Air Activity and Victory Claims" and his approach to part of the problem? I found it very interesting as well.

Any comments on that?

Dan-San,
Thanks for your comments. I was wondering about Kennedy. It would appear that he is above all anti-British, as opposed to anti-RAF scoring method,etc. His latest rant, bringing in "The Troubles", the Blacks & Tans, and so on really brought his biases to the forefront. Kelly's comments may be the opposite of Kennedy's, and no more valid, but at least he doesn't come across as especially anti-Irish.
You would think that people eventually would realise that most things in this world are not black and white, but more likely shades of gray.

[Billy_Bishop]

Everyone take notice, I'm not gloating. 8)

VBR,

Al

[Rick]

All,

Having FINALLY received OTF 16,3 Fall, 2001, and in regards to the continuing saga of Kelly-Gannon-Kennedy, you may now have a better appreciation of why I 'resigned' from the Mentioned in Despatches column. R.

[Frank_Olynyk]

Puck was right.

Frank.

[Billy_Bishop]

Ok, I'm not gloating TOO MUCH.

VBR,

Al Lowe