OTF controversy

15 January 2002, 09:35 AM

In the Fall 2001 issue of "Over The Front", there appeared several letters which are part of a continuing battle about scoring by the allies which has raged for several months. What I particularly found of interest was a paragraph by Kevin Kelly about confirmed German totals.
He listed a number of German aces who had claimed some 400 victories but had only matched up with SIX corresponding allied losses. Pilots included people like Schleich (35), Dorr (35), Windisch (22), Preuss (22), Laumann (28), Donhauser (19), Freden (20),etc. I assume he got his data from the Grub Street books, and was trying to show that scoring problems existed on both sides.
I know we have OTF readers on the forum - hello Dan-San -
and I know books have been written on MvR's victims, but is Kelly right? Are there large gaps on the German side as well?

Rick · 15 January 2002, 12:49 PM

The problem is that most of their v/c's were scored over the French. And, until Grub Street gets around to publishing Bailey's tome, we just have to wait patiently. R.

EdStevens · 15 January 2002, 02:18 PM

I find this hard to believe, frankly. Unless the Germans flew a lot more over the Allied side of the lines than I've ever heard, I can't see how they could have so many unconfirmed victories. Could the figure have been based on claims only, before they were confirmed? Otherwise, it must be "the French factor." Or, my already dismal faith in paperwork is about to sink even lower, and the Allies failed to report a lot of losses.

If that's true, how did they ever get replacement pilots?

WFS · 15 January 2002, 03:53 PM

Do you mean to say that the "Official German Records" weren't carved in stone and handed down from on high? shocking!

Rick · 15 January 2002, 04:56 PM

No, only that the 'victims' might not be documented. R.

rammjaeger · 15 January 2002, 11:52 PM

Terry,

this claim by Kevin Kelly is not new. Either he did not know or did not wish to know that the most claims of the mentioned aces were achieved against French pilots.

If nobody was publishing the results of comparisons between German claims and French losses then Kelly can not seriously expect to get another result because the Bailey/Cony-results are not available until now.

I believe Kelly was simply using the Grub Street books without doing any further own research. Nevertheles there are always some overclaimer also to find in the German Air Force and I have seen examples of German pilots using good "opportunities". As well it is said some of the French records were destroyed in WWII as well. *

IMHO Kelly did not display enough knowledge about the mentioned pilots as well about French records here.

VBR
Rammjaeger

rammjaeger · 16 January 2002, 12:03 AM

Terry,

you can check the structure of claims (British/French) in

ATL. You will possibly find that ALL mentioned pilots had the overwhelming part of their victories against Frenchmen.

I am waiting for the results of your counting.

And I am grateful to the good (but not perfect - nobody is perfect) British record keeping and the niece circumstances which prevented a destruction by bombing of British files in WWII.

rammjaeger · 16 January 2002, 12:22 AM

Finaly:

>>I assume he got his data from the Grub Street books, and was trying to show that scoring problems existed on both sides.<<

Nobody did ever seriously refuse the idea that scoring problems did exist on both sides - but the difference of the dimension in overclaiming is striking! All earlier discussions here have shown that even under consideration of a high number of not recorded walk-away or other losses on the German side the British claims are far away from the reality of air combat in WWI. Anybody should tell Kelly as well that NEVER a comparison of ALL German aces´claims with *documents of the other side was done - also not in

ATL!
*

16 January 2002, 06:34 AM

Rammjaeger,
A quick look confirms that the vast majority of the claims by the pilots listed were indeed over French aircraft. You are correct; Kelly should have picked up on that right away.
However, as I was checking, I did see others who had scored the majority of their victories against British foes but had low confirmation totals ; for example Thuy (5 of 35),Ray (3 of 17), Piechulek (0 of 14),etc.
I can assume probably that the research will never be complete, but I guess that is one of those things can continue to give us such interest in the events of over eighty years ago.

rammjaeger · 16 January 2002, 08:40 AM

Terry,

it is still a fascinating topic and will be so at least another 8 years or even some decades. I recall from earlier threads that the Grub Street authors did (or had to) concentrate their research on the more well-known or better documented aces (because of the limited volume of time and research capacity). So I am not wondering about the other "Zeros" of other German pilots here. During my own researches I was starting sometimes with pilots with very low verification rates (according to earlier Grub Street books and other sources) who are meanwhile on average levels or even better.
The same will happen to some Allied pilots in the future too - there is not only to expect "downgrading" of scores. As well some German aces will lose a bit of their "profile" in the future too.

BTW I am also not sharing all arguments which were given in favour of the German side by Kelly´s counterparts.