Mannock's death

Sholto Douglas speculated that Mc Cudden was fooled by the weight he was dealing with. On the final flight he was dealing with a combat load; before that, he was flying training flights that didn't require a full load. I don't know the weight difference. Could that offer yet another explanation?
DD

[WFS]

Sholto Douglas speculated that Mc Cudden was fooled by the weight he was dealing with. On the final flight he was dealing with a combat load; before that, he was flying training flights that didn't require a full load. I don't know the weight difference. Could that offer yet another explanation?
* * *

McCudden was an experienced combat pilot. He was only in England for about 4 months before he returned to France. I find it hard to believe that his short time with Home Establishment would have caused him to forget how to handle a battle ready SE5a.

Regards,
Wayne

[Graeme]

JBS

Both Mannock (E1295) and Inglis (E1294) were flying SE5a's powered by 200hp Wolseley W.4A Viper engines.

Mannock is recorded as having berated by McElroy (40 Sqn) and Taffy Jones (74 Sqn) for having followed aircraft down to low level. So it can be said that he definitely broke his own "rule" and it was this that led to his death.

Aircraft recognition by ground forces (both sides) was generally poor, so it pays to be dubious. However, at this juncture of the war, the Camel was usually operated at lower levels with the SE5s giving cover higher up. By inference, the aeroplanes were at low level so must have been Camels. We, of course, know better.

According to The SE5 File, the SE5a weighed 1,531 lbs empty and 2,048 lbs loaded.

Apparently, a list compiled by the Air Ministry immediately after the war showed Mannock with 73 victories; Grid Caldwell reckoned he got 68; the citation for his VC (London Gazette 18 July 1919) states 50 victories but mentions only his RAF service (by most counts he got 16 victories with the RFC, so 66?); according to the authors of Above The Trenches, 62 claims fell within the category of "decisive" and are supported by a combat report or entry in a wing or brigade summary.

Graeme

Wayne: Cole, in "McCudden, VC" echoes your sentiments. Apparently, four people at the field hear or saw the last flight. If memory serves, three mentioned the sputtering engine. Cole also mentions the climbing turn, McCudden's aircraft being new, this being his first time at that field, trees around the field stealing 50 to 60 feet of space to work with, and other factors that led to this tragedy. He discounted weight, too.
DD

[Vigilant]

860, really, is that gross or empty weight? What kind of restrictions are placed on microlights? What kind of certification do you need to fly one? Do you have an ultralight category in the UK like we do in the states (253lb and under, no license required)?

860 lb is the same as 390 kg which was the legal gross maximum for microlights when the Cyclone AX3 was designed. The max is now 450 kg to bring the UK into line with the rest of Europe. As a result you now get microlights looking exactly like light aircraft - a very retrograde step IMO. (Hmm, will Darryl 'C152' Hackett rise to the bait?) The current definition is no more than 450 kg, 2 persons, 50 litres of fuel and 25 kg / sq.m. wing-loading.

The restrictions on microlights are quite sweeping: no overfly of towns or villages for example, and you need to stay VFR at all times and in sight of the ground. On the other hand there is no stringent medical test, you can fill up with ordinary unleaded (mixed with motorcycle oil) and you really can land in any big field. There is a PPL (M) licence specially for microlights for which you have to do at least 15 hours dual and 10 solo. The planes don't have a certificate of airworthiness but something called a permit to fly instead - which is a bit less stringent - but anyone who has had dealings with the CAA will know that isn't saying much.

There is no lighter category of aircraft in Britain. I think even powered parachutes are classed as microlights. Finally I have no idea why everybody else in the world calls them 'ultralites' and we use 'microlights'. Just the British urge to be awkward I expect *

Vig.

PS - In Britain a licence is required for *everything*.

Thanks for the info, Vigilant! 8)

I'm reading "War Birds Diary of an Unknown Aviator"; on page 236 he talks about McCudden's death. He reports: "McCudden the great has been killed. He was taking off in an S.E. and he hit a tree. He'd just gotten back from England and had been flying with a light load over there. He forgot that he had four bombs on now and a full load of ammunition and he pulled up too steep." Apparently the weight idea had merit with some pilots.
DD

[Vin]

Browsing on the death of Mick Mannock, I came across 4 different accounts of his death. I particularly liked the first account.

1. “Considering he often let RAF novices take credit for pilots he had downed, this is a conservative estimate. He died towards the end of the war, after being hit following a Junkers CL1 aircraft and catching fire, something that he had preached to other pilots to avoid at all costs”

http://www.allsands.com/History/People/fig...lots_abd_gn.htm

2. Mannock was killed when his aircraft was shot down in flames by machine gun fire from the ground. Inglis was also brought down by ground fire but survived.

3. On 26th July, Major Mannock offered to help a new arrival, Donald Inglis, obtain his first victory. After shooting down an Albatros behind the German front-line, the two men headed for home. While crossing the trenches, the fighters were met with a massive volley of ground-fire. The engine of Mannock's aircraft was hit and immediately caught fire and crashed behind German lines. Mannock's body was found 250 yards from the wreck of his machine. He did not fire his revolver but it is believed he might have jumped from his blazing plane just before it crashed.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmannock.htm

4. Inglis described what happened after the second kill:
Falling in behind Mick again we made a couple of circles around the burning wreck and then made for home. I saw Mick start to kick his rudder, then I saw a flame come out of his machine; it grew bigger and bigger. Mick was no longer kicking his rudder. His nose dropped slightly and he went into a slow right-hand turn, and hit the ground in a burst of flame.
I circled at about twenty feet but could not see him, and as things were getting hot, made for home and managed to reach our outposts with a punctured fuel tank. Poor Mick ...the bloody bastards had shot my Major down in flames.

http://www.acepilots.com/wwi/br_mannock.html

Soderbaum’s German Kofl report that one Camel was shot down by ground machine gun fire Pacaut wood followed by a second Camel shortly afterwards is consistent with at least one account that has both Mannock and Inglis shot down with Inglis surviving but is inconsistent as to the types of aircraft flown by the two.

Is there an account of his death that is conclusive and credible ?



Vin

[Billy_Bishop]

Low 60s? I thought it was recorded as 73. However, I have heard that Ira Jones padded it to P.O. a Certain Canadian, but that was during a rather acrimonious debate on involving Mannock, Jones, and That Certain Canadian.

If Mannock's score was officially 73, it may be best to let it be. *If we start revising British scores, some worlds may turn upside down!

I suggest you look at the list of English aces here. *You'll find Mannock at the top, with 61. *

As for what his "official" score was, that is still something of a mystery. *His VC citation of 1919 said this: "definitely accounted for by Major Mannock up to the date of his death in France (26th July, 1918) is 50-..."

In the Grub Street book Above the Trenches the authors are able to find verification for 61 confirmed. *Most accounts written post-WWI, OTHER than those written by Taffy Jones credit Mannock with something between 50 and 60. *At least, until Jones' efforts result in a "re-writing" of history, to the effect that Mannock's "defacto" score becomes 73.

I find it a bit ironic that Mick came to his fate
in a burning plane after his famous quote
about MvR
"I hope he burned all the way down".