Mannock's death

[Graeme]

Al

Grid Caldwell is another who suggests that victories that might well have been claimed by Mannock were in fact "given" to rookies to bolster their morale. Since 74 Squadron is one of the units for which there is a number of "Flight" or "Patrol" victories, where individual pilots are not named, it is possible that the decision was taken locally that to prevent nobody getting credit, the new boy would be allowed to submit a claim at the expense of the more experienced pilots. I admit this is not likely, but it is a possibility.

Baron

The set up of RAF formations precluded the possibility of Mannock or anyone else being given control of a formation of four squadrons. To say that MvR must therefore have been a better leader on the basis that he led a bigger formation, overlooks the fact that the allied commanders weren't given the same opportunity.

Graeme

As regards to McCudden, perhaps he was prevented from doing a "dead stick" landing straight ahead of him due to obstacles. I have read that he was found in his wreckage in a wood. Maybe this was his reason for turning which resulted in his crash.

On another note what apparently is his smashed windscreen is on display in the World War I section at the Imperial War Museum, London.

Regards

Ben.

[Barrett]

I think there's basically two ways to measure a leader: the results he produces in his own organization and how many good-excellent leaders arise therefrom. The success of Jasta 11 and JG-1 are indisputable, as are the number of MvR's protoge's who themselves achieved squadron command. So I reckon we'd have to compute how many of Mannock's or McCudden's JOs went on to command squadrons themselves. However, it's a competition skewed by the fact that the brits had nothing comparable to a geschwader, so MvR has a 4x advantage.
It is definitely safe to say that great leaders produce other great leaders: witness Boelcke.

Dear Vin,
Sorry to have taken this long to answer; I believe that the report cited was CITAR-- I copied it from Franks' WHO DOWNED THE ACES IN WW1? (Grub Street, London 1996; Barnes & Noble, New York 1998). (BTW, since I have admitted copying it and did not at first give my source, would anyone here say that I am a plagiarist?-- this actually concerns the thread about Stephen Ambrose)...
Franks continues:"It was not the most sensible thing to do to fly back across the lines at such a low level and one has to wonder why such an experienced pilot as Mannock should have done so. He actually came down at 07.00 near Pacaut Wäldchen in the area of the German 100th Infantry Regiment, so one must assume it was ground fire from this Regiment that hit the SE5. Despite this, one has to wonder too if Mannock himself had been hit, for being so low he must surely have had time to force-land and get clear before his SE5 began to burn."
One more thing-- didn't Mannock and McElroy THE NIGHT BEFORE discuss the matter of following an enemy down? (This is how it was reported in another thread months and months ago)...
Now for McCudden...
I read somewhere that, in "those days", if in trouble, it was advised to crash your plane into a tree-- supposedly much safer than hitting the ground or attempting a landing. Personally, I can't see myself intentionally aiming for a tree...
McCudden's death has always made me wonder; now that I've read of his habit of a climbing turn, I can't think that he did anything wrong. I don't think that he had that sense of invincibility that would characterize an ace or pilot who had spent perhaps too long at the front, as McCudden had been flying in England the months before, as an instructor. Are we saying that once he flew into French airspace that he forgot a rule that he could have very well been teaching to his students only a week before? He just got very, very unlucky; he lingered, I've read, for another day. I hope in God's mercy that he was in a coma...
But, unfortunately, nothing is ever clear-cut; this is from an article that Mr. Halliday sent me. It's from Esquire Magazine (early 1960's), MEMOIRS OF AN ACE, written by Vance Borjaily, about the American ace Charles D'Olive, 93rd Squadron:
"After the war was ended, D'Olive was sitting in the tent at Toule Airdorme with Shelby, roasting chestnu s and drinking French beer, and waiting for orders to get them home.
'Hobey came in. He had orders to go home, and was kidding us about it.
'"I'm going to hop over to Nancy and pick up my new uniform," he said.
'Shelby said, hell, if the war was over, let's not fly any more. Let's take the Cadillac, but Hobey said no, went out and got a plane and took off. His engine slugged down right over the the hangar, and he tried to turn back. He knew better than that; it's a cardinal rule that when you have engine failure on takeoff, you land straight ahead, reagardless of obstacles. When he tried to turn back the bottom dropped out. He may not have fallen ten feet, but with all the weight of the plane stopped like that in the air, it killed him.'"

A much more likely reason offered by Taffy Jones as to Mannocks score is that he simply did not file reports on all his engagements.

Also Mick does not seem (from the accounts read) to be a man who would be that interested in "score" and this may also explain his lax reporting.

[Graeme]

Capt Lewis - the idea was to aim the 'plane between two trees so that the wings absorbed most of the impact and gave the pilot a better chance of walking away. Aiming at the tree would not have been conducive to survival.

Graeme

[Ginger.]

Also hold on to the seat with one hand and the instrument panel with the other,while lifting feet of the floor.
A lifetime's supply of free oxygen to whomsoever names the author of this little pearl of wisdom.???

[EARTHLING]

Ginger

Wasn't it Mannock's friend and supporter Ira Whatsit. I think he said there was a moment when you knew you were going to crash. He then did what you suggested but I think you will find that he tucked his legs underneath him out of the way of the engine. He could of course do this as he suffered from what used to be known as 'Duck's disease'. i.e. shortness of leg.

[Ginger.]

Peter,
Yes,it was the moment you gormed the plane was going to stop flying.:
Tuck your legs behind your ears and take a deep breath.
YOU ARE THIS WEEK'S LUCKY WINNER!!!!!

Although threads tend to wander off topic (including this one, which began as an inquiry into Mannock's death, not his score), several posts (notably No.27, by Vin, 7 January) simply underline the fact assorted stories and legend attach themselves to various personalities, and the importance of going to contemporary sources to get the "straght goods" rather than accounts compiled years later, sometimes by persons who were not present. The thread about "Mannock's Mercy" underlined the fact that a particular legend had not basis in contemporary documents and was at odds with what was known about Mannock's career. Another thread, many months ago, made much of a book published decades after the events that described McLeod (VC) and Hammond as being in a fight with Triplanes including a lurid account of a German pilot having his head "shot off" - something that appears in NO CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT of the action and is most likely an invention of later narrators.