First German Aerial Victory of World War 1

Frank_Olynyk · 25 December 2001, 06:43 AM

Neal O'Connor in the third volume of his Imperial Awards series, published a translation of a combat report for a victory on November 5, 1914, by Ltn. Richard Flashar (pilot), and Oblt. Demuth (observer). *Can anyone answer any of the following questions:

What was Demuth's first name?
What type of aircraft did they fly?
The victory did not appear in the OHL Meldung (HQ Communiqué). *Is there any other known contemporary source for this victory?

Merry Christmas!

Frank.

Immo_Frese · 27 December 2001, 10:08 AM

Frank,

I don't know about Demuth's firstname or the aircraft.

But there is one source for this first confirmed german aerial victory:

Tagesbefehl of the 1.Army 14.November 1914:

"Am 5.November 1914 hat der Oberleutnant Demuth in einem von Leutnant Flashar gesteuertem Flugzeug ein französisches Flugzeug diesseits unserer linien zum Absturz gebracht. beiden Fliegern spreche ich für die im luftkampf bewiesene tatkraft meine besondere Anerkennung aus."

gez. von Kluck

You can read more about the incident in the article (in german) by Jörg Mückler, published in "Propellerblatt", No 0/2001, S. 9-12.

VBR, Immo

Rick · 27 December 2001, 10:27 AM

Frank, sorry, I also do not know Demuth's first name. But, hey, now you at least have confirmation of the v/c. R.

Frank_Olynyk · 27 December 2001, 06:32 PM

Thanks, Immo, now I really do have to subscribe to Propellerblatt. I had gone through the first 19 volumes of Der Völkerkrieg (of 28), which covers through the end of 1916, checking out the OHL Meldungen, without any luck (as far as Nov 5, 1914 goes; good details for other claims). And I just looked in the index volume (28), and did not find Demuth or Flashar. And while there are three Ltn. Demuth's in the Prussian Army Officers List for 1913 (Rangliste der Königl. Preussischen Armee), and several in the post-war Ehrenrangliste, neither book gives first names. And as an observer he would not have gotten a pilot's license, and therefore does not appear in the list of early German pilot's published in Zwei Generation Luftwaffe. And no Oblt. Demuth appears in the Aviation casualty lists. War is hell.

Frank.

Rick · 27 December 2001, 06:38 PM

Frank: "War is hell". And so is research!!!!!! R.

Immo_Frese · 27 December 2001, 11:29 PM

Hello Frank,

yes, that's the mess with the volumes of "Der Völkerkrieg". I checked them too, but unfortunately most of the Befehle are from the OHL and very few from the AOK.

Another possibility is to find Demuth's Stammregiment and to look if there was written a History of his regiment.

It is like Rick said: Research could be hell

VBR, Immo

Frank_Olynyk · 28 December 2001, 12:04 AM

Immo,
The 1913 Rangliste shows a Ltn. Demuth in each of the following, and no Obltn Demuth:
pg 42, a Feldjäger in the Reitendes Feldjägerkorps, 19.8.09 M7m
pg 188, Infantrie-Regiment Grossherzog Friedrich Franz II. von Mecklenburg-Schwerin (W. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 24 [III. A.R., 6. Div., 12. Inf. Brig. (mit Inf. R. 64)]; Adj. I, 17.8.07, D6d
pg 439, 1. Posensches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 20. [V. A.R., 10., Div., 10. Feldart. Brig. (mit Feldart. R. 56]; 19.8.11 L8l

I have no idea what the M7m, D6d and L8l mean. The date is presumably when he joined the unit, or when he received the rank.

If I were guessing, someone in the field artillery would be more likely than the others to end up as an observer.

In the Ehren-Rangliste des ehemaligen Deutschen Heeres, we find (leaving out the Dr. Demuth, Obergeneralärzte aD mit dem Range als Generalleutnant),
pg 25, corresponding to pg 42 above, Obltn, noted as H aD
pg 165, to 188 above, Ltn Demuth [Gstft d. DR 18. A] H a D
pg 487, to 439 above, Ltn Demuth, H aD

None of them are noted as killed, or deceased. I assume the "H aD" is Hauptmann ausser Dienst (Captain, retired).

As an example of someone we do know about,

Oswald Boelcke can be found on page 594, in Telegraphen-Bataillon Nr. 3, noted as Ltn. Boelcke (JSt 2 d. FlTr) H crossed swords=KIA (abg.) 28.10.16 westl. Bapaume.

So it would appear that Demuth survived the war, unless of course there is some reason why he would be excluded from the Rangliste, and therefore the Ehren-Rangliste.

Frank.

Immo_Frese · 28 December 2001, 12:29 AM

Frank,

I will try to check this the next days. If I will find something interesting I will let you know.

VBR, Immo

Immo_Frese · 2 January 2002, 03:44 AM

Hello Frank,

checked some material in the library and found out the following:

The airplane was a Rumpler B Doppeldecker. Can't find the firstname of Lt. Demuth but he defenetly belongs to Reitendes Feldjägerkorps. Pehaps it is possible to find his full name in a book about his Stammregiment. Wasn't able to take a look at it because it is lent by the library at present.
My info concerning his Stammregiment and the aircraft type comes from the following source:

"Amtlicher Bericht über den ersten deutschen Luftsieg im Weltkrieg.", in: Das Sponton. Heereskundliches Mitteilungsblatt der Sammlung "Heere der Vergangenheit", 4/1964, page 89.

Don't know about the little abbreviations given in the Rangliste but I will find out...

Hope this helps,

Immo

Soderbaum · 6 January 2002, 05:16 AM

Hi

I think Hannes or Mr Rammjäger in an earlier thread also had another reference about this first known German air to air victory..?

However it is NOT 100 % sure that this was the first German air to air victory as discussed earlier on this Forum... ???
What about the "Taviet" claim in August 1914..?...it was definitely also attacked by German aircraft(according to sources presented by Hannes) except firing upon from the ground and it came down in German territory...

Can anyone identify the possible French crew of Flashaar and Demuths victory..?

some thoughts from the north
Gunnar