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Langdon · 13 June 2006, 08:40 PM

Taz,

Thank you for your comments.

CWATSON,

I have no doubt the plane undergoing the cross change with what appears to be a overpainted upper wing usually identified as 477/17 is not the all red plane with iron crosses,the pictures were taken the same day on the same airfield and Dan San mentions there is a picture that shows the wings of both aircraft at the same time. I do not have the picture Dan San mentions here but he states from the angle mentioned it was taken you can see the wing is not red but factory streaked, if you have this picture please post it. If you believe 477/17 was painted with at least a red wing this can not be the plane.

The aircraft identified by Alex Imrie in his excellent book definitely has its top wing painted in a solid dark colour, if you look at the photo carefully you can see the quite uneven demarcation line along the leading edge which is lower than the standard.

As Taz points out it fits MvRs combat report descriptions (different to the all red description for 425/17) and has passed Alex's rigorous standards for identification.

You mention there may be remains of the rudder in the IWM. If anyone had pictures of this material it would end the discussion for good(yeah right ). If the rudder material had no red under the white but had a Iron cross under the strait cross it would prove it was not the "V" plane because the "V" plane is pictured at a time when other planes are already undergoing cross changes to the strait crosses so the would be no reason to paint a early iron cross before a later cross was added if the rudder had been recovered as you state may be the case.

If the material shows no sign of red or iron cross under the white but just the later strait cross then the argument for a repaired and recovered would be proven.

I have a photo showing the rudder, with an identification tag attached, after it had been removed from the aircraft. What became of the rudder is anyones guess, like the Voss rudder it has disappeared but they may still lurk somewhere in the IWM.

I think what you are referring to is the fabric from the rudder which I understand is held by the Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto Canada. A friend of mine has a small piece from this rudder and it has no red under the white.

If the rudder shows signs of the original cross that would not settle the debate, it would also need to show the werks number to guarantee its originality.

13 June 2006, 08:40 PM	#71 (permalink)
Langdon Forum Ace Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 753	Taz, Thank you for your comments. CWATSON, I have no doubt the plane undergoing the cross change with what appears to be a overpainted upper wing usually identified as 477/17 is not the all red plane with iron crosses,the pictures were taken the same day on the same airfield and Dan San mentions there is a picture that shows the wings of both aircraft at the same time. I do not have the picture Dan San mentions here but he states from the angle mentioned it was taken you can see the wing is not red but factory streaked, if you have this picture please post it. If you believe 477/17 was painted with at least a red wing this can not be the plane. The aircraft identified by Alex Imrie in his excellent book definitely has its top wing painted in a solid dark colour, if you look at the photo carefully you can see the quite uneven demarcation line along the leading edge which is lower than the standard. As Taz points out it fits MvRs combat report descriptions (different to the all red description for 425/17) and has passed Alex's rigorous standards for identification. You mention there may be remains of the rudder in the IWM. If anyone had pictures of this material it would end the discussion for good(yeah right ). If the rudder material had no red under the white but had a Iron cross under the strait cross it would prove it was not the "V" plane because the "V" plane is pictured at a time when other planes are already undergoing cross changes to the strait crosses so the would be no reason to paint a early iron cross before a later cross was added if the rudder had been recovered as you state may be the case. If the material shows no sign of red or iron cross under the white but just the later strait cross then the argument for a repaired and recovered would be proven. I have a photo showing the rudder, with an identification tag attached, after it had been removed from the aircraft. What became of the rudder is anyones guess, like the Voss rudder it has disappeared but they may still lurk somewhere in the IWM. I think what you are referring to is the fabric from the rudder which I understand is held by the Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto Canada. A friend of mine has a small piece from this rudder and it has no red under the white. If the rudder shows signs of the original cross that would not settle the debate, it would also need to show the werks number to guarantee its originality.