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RAGIII,
Having just re-read the Imrie comments in his Triplane book, I would have to say that both of you have left out pertinent statements. Two sections should be looked at.
1. MvRs triplanes from which most of the previous quotes come.
2. Museum Pieces, in which section Imrie continues to make cmments reference 152/17.
The problem with quoting is it takes such a long time to type out, my reply to Dan-San yesterday took me about 1.5 hours and I really only included the quote the other day to show up Dan-San's mis-quote. All of my quoting from Alex Imrie's book comes from the Museum pieces section as well as the two photos captions on page 106 and not from the MvRs triplanes as you have mentioned.
What I have gleaned from re-reading these sections is that Imrie believes that 152/17 was up until, and afer the 18th of March MvRs regular mount(Not a backup). He states roughly that it is not known when 152/17 was shipped to the museum but that He believes it was repainted All red with intent for further use as MvRs Regular Mount. He points out that the crosses were repainted to the latest style before shipping out.
I think this is the part that both Dan-San and I quoted from on page 109.
I read yesterday in Paul Leaman's book that 152/17 was sent to Schwerin on the 18 March (same day he achieved his 66 victory in this aircraft) to have its wings modified so this is another scenario to consider.
... He also says he doesn't believe any aircraft were specifically painted for MvR at the Factory.He also indicates that no reports mention 477/17 being overall red.
Actually I did kick myself for not adding in yesterdays post that I do not totally agree with Imrie; my present view is that 425/17 was a specially prepared aircraft, if not then it's very difficult to explain the lack of upper-surface camouflage and yet there are still the normal stencils and large cross fields, if the latter did not exist then we could suggest that the fabric was changed or that the paint was somehow stripped but the facts do point toward the aircraft being painted red at the factory. Having said that though, to be fair to Imrie, Allan Toelle had not conducted his study of the fabric at the time the book was written so with this added research to consider it is possible Alex might chance his opinion, anyway that's up to him to consider.
He makes it very clear that only those aircraft in which MvR scored victories are recorded in the Combat reports, and that MvR probably flew others.
This is the very point I have been trying to get Dan-San to consider, Imrie states "He doubtless flew other Fokker triplanes without scoring victories on them, and since in those cases combat reports (if submitted) are not available, the identities of such aircraft remain unknown." I would add to that, that he flew the aircraft he's known to be associated with far more than has been recorded, for the same reason.
He does state that 425/17 was painted Red on April 20th, but in his caption (photo 94) states that the all Red machine at Lechelle is 425/17 in late March? This seems to be a contradiction unless his stetement reference the April 20th date was meant to indicate that at this time 425/17 was Red and not that it was painted all Red on this date?
Cripes you gave me a conniption with that one!!!
I think you will find this is poorly worded and has a double meaning as you have already considered, what he is saying is that in the combat reports of the 20th of April, MvR states the aircraft was painted all red, this does not mean the paint was applied that day, on that day it was out scoring two victories. Possibly this has Dan-San confused as well as he has stated in the past that it was painted on this day.
IMHO this debate can not be settled unless outside sources are able to confirm the serial number on the negative Ed Ferko claimed to read proving the "V" aircraft was 425/17, or again other researchers can cinfirm Alex imrie and Tazs reading of the werke number on the disputed 477/17.
I agree with you there will be some doubt, the reason I started debating Dan-San was his refusal to stop pushing his opinion as conclusive fact. If you look at all the arguments - and I'm sure you have - then there is definitely far more evidence for 425/17 than against, if you consider Dan-San's proposal then you really have to get 152/17 out of the picture and pretend that 425/17 has not been delivered, even though it was built before 477/17.
What we do know is that one of MvRs all Red Triplanes is pictured, and re-appears in later photos with changed markings(crosses). We also know that 425/17 fabric samples show NO Evidence of streaking beneath the Red(Despite what Alex Imrie says reference no special paint jobs). Finally we know that 425/17 underwent ALL cross changes virtually proving it had been painted Red for MvR well before April 20th.
Correct those are the facts.
My belief based on the evidence at hand leans towards the all Red machine being 425/17, but that is opinion and without further evidence can not be proved.
Possibly, but we should wait and see the enlargement of the 477/17 photo that Taz has promised as well as hopefully finding a copy of the untranslated 477/17 combat report, either of these could be conclusive.
Langdon
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