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Langdon · 23 June 2006, 12:29 AM

Dave Watts,

Peter Kilduff's book "Richthofen" is certainly a fine and thoroughly researched work. It has been sometime since I read it, does he give a source for his description of the paint scheme for 477/17? If it is from Richthofen's combat reports then I suppose its game over for my theory but the problem is that many books are cross referenced based on the current likely opinion and as we go through the many excellent works that are available we keep seeing differing opinions, all from highly regarded authors trying their best to preserve history.

The dates you have provided above give us a great insight into the unfolding events of the time, the first thing that draws attention was the brief period that MvR flew 152/17, I had always thought this aircraft was an old faithful, kind of like the Albatros he handed on to Lothar. Having studied the events you quote above it becomes evident, if Dan-San and others are correct, that he only used this aircraft for 6 days, and recorded three victories on it! It seems very odd that such a new, relatively unused aircraft would be removed from service only to be placed in a museum right at a time when men and materials must have been in short supply with the opening offensive. To me it seems likely that this would only occur after the death of MvR as was the case with Immelman and Boelcke's aircraft. And to place his then current fighter in a museum would almost certainly be seen as tempting fate.

As with others I have been re-reading many books lately. Last night I came across another scenario for this aircraft, Ed Ferko states that 152/17, along with other Jasta 11 triplanes, were sent to Jasta 5 where it was flown by

Josef Mai between the 15th and 17th of May, possibly scoring an additional victory, does anyone have further information on this? I cannot imagine a pilot in another Jasta flying in MvR's colours.

The next thing that got my attention was the activity around the time of the move to LeChelle, Richthofen had been flying 477/17 as his main mount for a couple of days prior to the move and then right through to the 7th of April, from his victory list we can see he was busy claiming 10 victories in the 12 day period after the move to LeChelle.

According to some, the photos below show 477/17 at a date shortly after its move to LeChelle, most believe this was taken in late March or very early April and the thing that strikes me is that this aircraft is not currently in service (Also looks to have possible repaired damage to the bottom and top right wings). Dave mentions that For those not so familiar, (like myself), this will help to get a timeline on the movements of MvR leading up to the time of the photos taken of the all red Dr.I with rain drops still on the wings from a down pour at Lechelle airfield. That is why the prop is covered in the front photo.
but I do not agree that the prop is covered due to the rain, if the rain were a problem then the aircraft could be placed back in the empty hanger - it was said that one of the good things about LeChelle was the excellent hangers that provided hangerage for all of the aircraft. If you look at all of the other aircraft you do not see any with their props covered. Not only is the propeller covered but the engine is sealed up in the same packing in which they come from the factory, an engine that is in use is covered with Castor oil which prevents corrosion. To place this bag around the engine would almost certainly necessitate the removal of the propeller and cowling certainly not something that would be done on an aircraft that was required for daily service.

A very clean, oil free aircraft.

I firmly believe that proof either way can only be provided through an enlargement of the works number in the photo of the aircraft believed to be 477/17, or from the original combat reports. Dan-San one question please, do you have any of these reports from victories obtained in 477/17?

Kilduff states that MvR had three triplanes at his disposal, 127/17 and 477/17 so which is the third 152/17 or 425/17? If he's correct, one or the other has to be present at LeChelle.

Langdon

23 June 2006, 12:29 AM	#144 (permalink)
Langdon Forum Ace Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 753	Dave Watts, Peter Kilduff's book "Richthofen" is certainly a fine and thoroughly researched work. It has been sometime since I read it, does he give a source for his description of the paint scheme for 477/17? If it is from Richthofen's combat reports then I suppose its game over for my theory but the problem is that many books are cross referenced based on the current likely opinion and as we go through the many excellent works that are available we keep seeing differing opinions, all from highly regarded authors trying their best to preserve history. The dates you have provided above give us a great insight into the unfolding events of the time, the first thing that draws attention was the brief period that MvR flew 152/17, I had always thought this aircraft was an old faithful, kind of like the Albatros he handed on to Lothar. Having studied the events you quote above it becomes evident, if Dan-San and others are correct, that he only used this aircraft for 6 days, and recorded three victories on it! It seems very odd that such a new, relatively unused aircraft would be removed from service only to be placed in a museum right at a time when men and materials must have been in short supply with the opening offensive. To me it seems likely that this would only occur after the death of MvR as was the case with Immelman and Boelcke's aircraft. And to place his then current fighter in a museum would almost certainly be seen as tempting fate. As with others I have been re-reading many books lately. Last night I came across another scenario for this aircraft, Ed Ferko states that 152/17, along with other Jasta 11 triplanes, were sent to Jasta 5 where it was flown by Josef Mai between the 15th and 17th of May, possibly scoring an additional victory, does anyone have further information on this? I cannot imagine a pilot in another Jasta flying in MvR's colours. The next thing that got my attention was the activity around the time of the move to LeChelle, Richthofen had been flying 477/17 as his main mount for a couple of days prior to the move and then right through to the 7th of April, from his victory list we can see he was busy claiming 10 victories in the 12 day period after the move to LeChelle. According to some, the photos below show 477/17 at a date shortly after its move to LeChelle, most believe this was taken in late March or very early April and the thing that strikes me is that this aircraft is not currently in service (Also looks to have possible repaired damage to the bottom and top right wings). Dave mentions that For those not so familiar, (like myself), this will help to get a timeline on the movements of MvR leading up to the time of the photos taken of the all red Dr.I with rain drops still on the wings from a down pour at Lechelle airfield. That is why the prop is covered in the front photo. but I do not agree that the prop is covered due to the rain, if the rain were a problem then the aircraft could be placed back in the empty hanger - it was said that one of the good things about LeChelle was the excellent hangers that provided hangerage for all of the aircraft. If you look at all of the other aircraft you do not see any with their props covered. Not only is the propeller covered but the engine is sealed up in the same packing in which they come from the factory, an engine that is in use is covered with Castor oil which prevents corrosion. To place this bag around the engine would almost certainly necessitate the removal of the propeller and cowling certainly not something that would be done on an aircraft that was required for daily service. A very clean, oil free aircraft. I firmly believe that proof either way can only be provided through an enlargement of the works number in the photo of the aircraft believed to be 477/17, or from the original combat reports. Dan-San one question please, do you have any of these reports from victories obtained in 477/17? Kilduff states that MvR had three triplanes at his disposal, 127/17 and 477/17 so which is the third 152/17 or 425/17? If he's correct, one or the other has to be present at LeChelle. Langdon Last edited by Langdon; 23 June 2006 at 01:24 AM.