[Langdon]

Dan-San,

In reply to thread #161.

We know that there are significant gaps in the information we have on the various aircraft flown by MvR, probably we will never be able to sort out when he received aircraft and when they were finished with or what ultimately happened to them. I do not believe we can draw any substantial conclusions from the gaps in knowledge, i.e. when MvR first flew 425/17 when he retired or first flew 152/17; we know for instance that 152/17 should have been received around mid December 1917 but why do we hear nothing about it until the 12th March when he scores his first victory in it.

I do not believe you can discount the translated combat records just because they are not perfect copies of the originals due to the format and minor omissions. Unfortunately I do not know for sure but I suspect that the details we know and quote concerning Richthofen's victories come from these translated copies, if they really are suspect then we may as well stop debating this as all records concerning aircraft flown to achieve certain victories are also suspect, I really do not believe that to be the case or at least I certainly hope it isn't. To miss out on translating information like MvRs unit really could be explained by the translator thinking that that information was obvious. I know its disappointing when the job is done poorly but unfortunately it often is, let's hope we can find the originals and confirm or even re-translate the copies.

Peter Kilduff published the two untranslated copies above in his work "The Illustrated Red Baron" first published in 1999. The source given for the second of the two reports above is the PRO (possibly they reside with the translated copies?), he does not mention a source for the first report. Dan-San I know you have placed a lot of store in the quotes given by Dave Watts above, from Kilduff's other work "Richthofen" published in 1993 (which I have criticised today even though I believe it to be otherwise a very fine book) but if you look at the first published dates you will see "The Illustrated Red Baron" is the latter work, he has corrected his former mistake in that work and has identified the streaky camouflaged triplane with the red upper wing at LeChelle as 477/17 and he has what I, and many others, believe to be 425/17 identified in front of hanger 4 at LeChelle.

Concerning your other post, it would take me a couple of hours to go through my position again, precisely. I have not really altered my position throughout this debate, I have only added extra points as I have discovered or considered them. Would you mind going over my old posts to consider the theory. Throughout my posts I have stated my theory clearly and have included the information I believe to be fact with sources and made it perfectly clear when I am speculating and what I base the speculation on; a couple of pages back I provided a list of evidence. My only alteration is that I believe that other Dr.Is used by MvR may have been altered to bring them into line with the all-red scheme of 425/17 at LeChelle or later, prior to LeChelle I believe 425/17 to be the only all-red triplane and all other MvR Dr.I aircraft to be similar in the partial application of their red colour.