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Dave_Watts · 27 June 2006, 01:48 AM

Hi all,

I missed this passage from Kilduff's The Red Baron concerning our subject. It's in the first Chapter; the whole chapter pertains exclusively to the date of March 27th, 1918. How's that for being pertinent to our discussion?!

Page 13;

"On that Wednesday, 27 March 1918,..." "...German air group commander Rittmeister

Manfred von Richthofen noted the hour; 0745."

"...Bongartz, leader of Jagdstaffel 36...watched for his cue. Bongartz recognized der rote Kampfflieger, Richthofen, by the red colouring of the top wing and most of the fuselage of his Fokker triplane. When the red hawk began his descent, Bongartz led his pilots in a dive..."

"The first Jagdeschwader I pilot to inflict tangible damage was Jasta's 6's...Franz Hemer in a dirty-green triplane."

Page 14;

Just before 0900 MvR shoots down his 7st victory.

Page 15;

"Rittm von Richthofen...headed...back to...Lechelle."

They took over Lechelle on 26 of March.

Page 16;

"Geschwader-Kommandeur von Richthofen led the second mission. The triplane he had used in the morning, Fokker Dr.I 127/17, was replaced for the afternoon patrol by Dr.I 477/17, an aircraft which bore his brick-red colour on all upper surfaces and was all the more conspicuous from most of the other triplanes, which were painted in a standard brown and green streaked finish with a few individual adronments barely visible from a distance. The whole point was for everyone - friend and foe - to be able to recognize Germany's now legendary air combat leader."

This discription of 477/17 by Kilduff seems to contradict the earlier posting I made where he wrote;

Page 188;

"On the 24th, 105 sorties and involvement in fifteen air fights produced a loss and a victory. The day's sole victory - Manfred von Richthofen's 67th - was scored... Richthofen, looking like the apparition of red death in his first combat in the all-red Fokker Dr.I 477/17, ..."

and

"[26 March] Ltn.d.Res

Ernst Udet reported for duty at Awoingt... It was Udet's first flight in a Fokker Dr.I,... He hung back with the others as Richthofen dived down in his blood-red triplane to seal his 69th victory."

I wonder if Kilduff's statements from Chapter 1 are what he believed things to be, and the latter quotes from Chapter 12 are from his sources quoted?

Definitely a contradiction, or maybe not!

I have to say, if someone says "all-red" it may not really mean red all-over. As Kilduff points out, most planes were mostly in standard finish, if Manfred's 477/17 was all-red on the top surfaces then one would be inclined to state it was all-red, instead of stating it was mostly red.

I'm leaning towards all-red on upper surfaces. More to discuss.

Dan-San,

I can't help but be drawn back to the combat reports. I understand that you are saying the quoted material from the original and valid set of combat reports utilized by Floyd Gibbons in writing The Red Knight of Germany is valid. It appears there are or have been in existence a set of German MvR combat reports of which Langdon has posted the only two reports he has found. Do these two reports parallel the information quoted by Gibbons, or better said, do they contradict them?

To reiterate, I understand there may be extra information in the original reports Langdon posted, but does it contradict Gibbons' selected passages? It may be better to utilize a German edition of Der Rote Kampfflieger, to match them word by word.

Just an idea.

Best,
Dave W.

27 June 2006, 01:48 AM	#174 (permalink)
Dave_Watts Forum Ace Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Indy, Home of the 500 race Posts: 776	Hi all, I missed this passage from Kilduff's The Red Baron concerning our subject. It's in the first Chapter; the whole chapter pertains exclusively to the date of March 27th, 1918. How's that for being pertinent to our discussion?! Page 13; "On that Wednesday, 27 March 1918,..." "...German air group commander Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen noted the hour; 0745." "...Bongartz, leader of Jagdstaffel 36...watched for his cue. Bongartz recognized der rote Kampfflieger, Richthofen, by the red colouring of the top wing and most of the fuselage of his Fokker triplane. When the red hawk began his descent, Bongartz led his pilots in a dive..." "The first Jagdeschwader I pilot to inflict tangible damage was Jasta's 6's...Franz Hemer in a dirty-green triplane." Page 14; Just before 0900 MvR shoots down his 7st victory. Page 15; "Rittm von Richthofen...headed...back to...Lechelle." They took over Lechelle on 26 of March. Page 16; "Geschwader-Kommandeur von Richthofen led the second mission. The triplane he had used in the morning, Fokker Dr.I 127/17, was replaced for the afternoon patrol by Dr.I 477/17, an aircraft which bore his brick-red colour on all upper surfaces and was all the more conspicuous from most of the other triplanes, which were painted in a standard brown and green streaked finish with a few individual adronments barely visible from a distance. The whole point was for everyone - friend and foe - to be able to recognize Germany's now legendary air combat leader." This discription of 477/17 by Kilduff seems to contradict the earlier posting I made where he wrote; Page 188; "On the 24th, 105 sorties and involvement in fifteen air fights produced a loss and a victory. The day's sole victory - Manfred von Richthofen's 67th - was scored... Richthofen, looking like the apparition of red death in his first combat in the all-red Fokker Dr.I 477/17, ..." and "[26 March] Ltn.d.Res Ernst Udet reported for duty at Awoingt... It was Udet's first flight in a Fokker Dr.I,... He hung back with the others as Richthofen dived down in his blood-red triplane to seal his 69th victory." I wonder if Kilduff's statements from Chapter 1 are what he believed things to be, and the latter quotes from Chapter 12 are from his sources quoted? Definitely a contradiction, or maybe not! I have to say, if someone says "all-red" it may not really mean red all-over. As Kilduff points out, most planes were mostly in standard finish, if Manfred's 477/17 was all-red on the top surfaces then one would be inclined to state it was all-red, instead of stating it was mostly red. I'm leaning towards all-red on upper surfaces. More to discuss. Dan-San, I can't help but be drawn back to the combat reports. I understand that you are saying the quoted material from the original and valid set of combat reports utilized by Floyd Gibbons in writing The Red Knight of Germany is valid. It appears there are or have been in existence a set of German MvR combat reports of which Langdon has posted the only two reports he has found. Do these two reports parallel the information quoted by Gibbons, or better said, do they contradict them? To reiterate, I understand there may be extra information in the original reports Langdon posted, but does it contradict Gibbons' selected passages? It may be better to utilize a German edition of Der Rote Kampfflieger, to match them word by word. Just an idea. Best, Dave W.