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Dave_Watts · 29 June 2006, 11:38 PM

Hi all,

Sorry about the double page posting, it was late and I was tired. I have it corrected now.

Dan-San look at the second page, it mentions, "Richthofen's roter Fokker". I thought this must translate to "Richthofen's red Fokker", implying his Dr.I. I believe this passage relates to his March 18th downing of his 66th victory over a Sopwith Camel.

The reason I searched this book is because Kilduff cites it as a reference several times in his book. I was hoping to find a passage to "red", "all-red" or "blood-red" triplane. Looks like I found "red", but it applies to 152/17. So in this case "red" does not mean "all-red". My point was to analyze the wording and meaning of that wording when Bodenschatz or Udet for that matter, when they would say "red" or "all-red" what they meant. In this case I believe Bodenschatz is calling 152/17 "red", but we know he must mean "partially-red" at best. Akin to my posting where I stated;

"I have to say, if someone says "all-red" it may not really mean red all-over. As Kilduff points out, most planes were mostly in standard finish, if Manfred's 477/17 was all-red on the top surfaces then one would be inclined to state it was all-red, instead of stating it was mostly red."

This is where you have to interpret a bit and not take statements at face value, or at least temper them.

Following all from Bodenschatz's, Jagd in Flanderns Himmel.

Here is a passage for April 6th where I believe a red triplane is mentioned. Assistance in translation please...

Here we have the official victory claim by MvR where we can see how he refers to his paint scheme of 152/17, which reads to be very specific and not so general as "red" or "all-red".

Lastly, we have the victory claim by MvR with 425/17 where he states the color scheme as "red painted" or for us English folks, "painted red". Kind of a general statement as it could mean "painted red all over"? Everyone believes this plane to be "red all over", (and I don't mean a newspaper - "read all over") so "painted red" means "red all over".

Langdon, you posted the same two victory claims but yours were missing the reference from where they came. Note Bodenschatz credits the Kriegstagebuch des Jagdgeschwaders, anyone know of this book?

Dan-San,

Any other passages you can refer me to where Bodenschatz or Udet refer to a "red", "all-red", or "blood-red" triplane would be appreciated. I know this is not a "smoking-gun" as far as evidence goes, but it may shed light on the subject at hand.

Best,
Dave W.

29 June 2006, 11:38 PM	#188 (permalink)
Dave_Watts Forum Ace Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Indy, Home of the 500 race Posts: 776	Hi all, Sorry about the double page posting, it was late and I was tired. I have it corrected now. Dan-San look at the second page, it mentions, "Richthofen's roter Fokker". I thought this must translate to "Richthofen's red Fokker", implying his Dr.I. I believe this passage relates to his March 18th downing of his 66th victory over a Sopwith Camel. The reason I searched this book is because Kilduff cites it as a reference several times in his book. I was hoping to find a passage to "red", "all-red" or "blood-red" triplane. Looks like I found "red", but it applies to 152/17. So in this case "red" does not mean "all-red". My point was to analyze the wording and meaning of that wording when Bodenschatz or Udet for that matter, when they would say "red" or "all-red" what they meant. In this case I believe Bodenschatz is calling 152/17 "red", but we know he must mean "partially-red" at best. Akin to my posting where I stated; "I have to say, if someone says "all-red" it may not really mean red all-over. As Kilduff points out, most planes were mostly in standard finish, if Manfred's 477/17 was all-red on the top surfaces then one would be inclined to state it was all-red, instead of stating it was mostly red." This is where you have to interpret a bit and not take statements at face value, or at least temper them. Following all from Bodenschatz's, Jagd in Flanderns Himmel. Here is a passage for April 6th where I believe a red triplane is mentioned. Assistance in translation please... Here we have the official victory claim by MvR where we can see how he refers to his paint scheme of 152/17, which reads to be very specific and not so general as "red" or "all-red". Lastly, we have the victory claim by MvR with 425/17 where he states the color scheme as "red painted" or for us English folks, "painted red". Kind of a general statement as it could mean "painted red all over"? Everyone believes this plane to be "red all over", (and I don't mean a newspaper - "read all over") so "painted red" means "red all over". Langdon, you posted the same two victory claims but yours were missing the reference from where they came. Note Bodenschatz credits the Kriegstagebuch des Jagdgeschwaders, anyone know of this book? Dan-San, Any other passages you can refer me to where Bodenschatz or Udet refer to a "red", "all-red", or "blood-red" triplane would be appreciated. I know this is not a "smoking-gun" as far as evidence goes, but it may shed light on the subject at hand. Best, Dave W.