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Dave_Watts · 30 June 2006, 03:21 AM

Hi all,

Langdon,

Your point of where did Kilduff get his copies made me go back and look at your posted versions and compare them to mine. Kilduff's are certainly different. He did not simply copy Bodenschatz's printed versions. First of all, Kilduff's are in general much darker with some of the letters being so heavy they close up. No doubt both Kilduff's and Bodenschatz's facsimiles are made from the same originals. Look at Kilduff's 425/17 report, you will find the words, "Sopwith - Camel" at the left, if you go downward from the word "Camel" on Kilduff's there is a lone solitary "s" above the paragraph. An error no doubt, but it has almost been removed/lost from Bodenshatz's copy...only the very bottom of the "s" remains.

Correct me if I'm wrong...the PRO holds copies of the two above posted German victory claims with English translations...or not?

If not,...

Kilduff got his copies from some other possibly independent source. I wonder where?

If so,...

This proves that the PRO copies of these two victory claims were made either directly from the originals or excellent copies of the originals, not from Bodenschatz's book. I can't imagine these documents are fake. Look again at my above posted copies of the 425/17 report and the attached "confirmation".

Dan-San, you stated that Gibbon's work has these "bogus" documents cited as well. How far back does that go, 1927? Are you stating the documents printed in Bodenschatz's book are these same fakes? If so, then I'm guessing there are no originals or copies in existence.

It makes it tough when you discredit all known documented victory claims...they even fooled Bodenschatz!

Did Bodenschatz get his bogus copies from the PRO? Since he was a German, I'd figure he'd get them from the Berlin Archive.

Does anyone have a copy of Der Rote Kampfflieger, as that was written in the hand of the master in 1917. Was there any additional information included after his death that may collaborate the 66th victory claim?

I think we should be able to nail down these German claim documents as originals or fakes.

Dan-San, what's your guess as to when the fakes first were planted in the archives...1926 or 27', coinciding with the release of Gibbon's fabrication/forgery The Red Knight of Germany flimflam?

If so...

It's too bad the forgeries are so close in date to the original time period, it would be impossible to scientifically time date them accurately enough to distinguish them from each other, (say 1926 from 1918).

Best,
Dave W.

30 June 2006, 03:21 AM	#190 (permalink)
Dave_Watts Forum Ace Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Indy, Home of the 500 race Posts: 776	Hi all, Langdon, Your point of where did Kilduff get his copies made me go back and look at your posted versions and compare them to mine. Kilduff's are certainly different. He did not simply copy Bodenschatz's printed versions. First of all, Kilduff's are in general much darker with some of the letters being so heavy they close up. No doubt both Kilduff's and Bodenschatz's facsimiles are made from the same originals. Look at Kilduff's 425/17 report, you will find the words, "Sopwith - Camel" at the left, if you go downward from the word "Camel" on Kilduff's there is a lone solitary "s" above the paragraph. An error no doubt, but it has almost been removed/lost from Bodenshatz's copy...only the very bottom of the "s" remains. Correct me if I'm wrong...the PRO holds copies of the two above posted German victory claims with English translations...or not? If not,... Kilduff got his copies from some other possibly independent source. I wonder where? If so,... This proves that the PRO copies of these two victory claims were made either directly from the originals or excellent copies of the originals, not from Bodenschatz's book. I can't imagine these documents are fake. Look again at my above posted copies of the 425/17 report and the attached "confirmation". Dan-San, you stated that Gibbon's work has these "bogus" documents cited as well. How far back does that go, 1927? Are you stating the documents printed in Bodenschatz's book are these same fakes? If so, then I'm guessing there are no originals or copies in existence. It makes it tough when you discredit all known documented victory claims...they even fooled Bodenschatz! Did Bodenschatz get his bogus copies from the PRO? Since he was a German, I'd figure he'd get them from the Berlin Archive. Does anyone have a copy of Der Rote Kampfflieger, as that was written in the hand of the master in 1917. Was there any additional information included after his death that may collaborate the 66th victory claim? I think we should be able to nail down these German claim documents as originals or fakes. Dan-San, what's your guess as to when the fakes first were planted in the archives...1926 or 27', coinciding with the release of Gibbon's fabrication/forgery The Red Knight of Germany flimflam? If so... It's too bad the forgeries are so close in date to the original time period, it would be impossible to scientifically time date them accurately enough to distinguish them from each other, (say 1926 from 1918). Best, Dave W.