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Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott
RAGSIII:
Your stand on Fok.DR.I 425/17 can not be substantiated or supported by any of the known facts.
I would like to ask you a few questions, that hopefully you will answer. Please state your information source.
1. What is the first record of DR.I 425/17? Also what date?
2. Where was Jage.Nr1 located when DR.I 425/17 was first recorded in service, and what was that date?
3. What information, (document, record, whatever) exists after Fok.DR.I 425/17 was accepted at Fokker Flugzeugwerke? Also what was that date?
4. Prior to 20 April 1918, is there any record that MvR flew DR.I 425/17?
I would appreciate a truthful honest answers, no emotions, or what you would like it to be.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
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Dan,
I don't usually post with emotion! My last post was a "failure" as I had hoped it would elicit some responses as to how absurd my position was relating to not believing and trying to reason out aircraft identification based on published information. What I am trying to say is that we all read and base our "Opinions" on what research has preceded us! I have no emotion about 477/17or486/17, or 521/17.I can only observe the pictures and info by far more learned researchers than myself,and form an opinion. No POINT is MOOT until the hard evidence is published truly revealing that the picture in question is 2189 ! I do not see the 4th rib light and dark areas you describe. I am not sure of how to trust an anonymous poster respected tho he be
You have introduced some radical changes in camo schemes for Albatros fighters and Fokker EVs. Yes you have produced some hard evidence for both, but to the average person on this forum, some "Faith" in your research and conclusions is necessary! When it comes to acers "interpretation" it requires a leap of faith I can't make.The fact that I don't agree with your interpretation of available information on 425/17 isn't emotional, It is just my opinion based on what I can read and see for myself. I wish I had the time and money to be a serious researcher! I would love to have access to the Ferko and other collections at UTD! I am sure you are ready to pounce on any "Facts" I present but I will try based on what I have read( A lot is already in this thread posted earlier by myself and others).
Answer to # 1... See your Question #4. No one disputes that 425/17 isn't mentioned in "Combat reports" before April 20th. It has been argued by myself and other far more knowledgable researchers including I believe Imrie, that this does not mean 425/17 was not flown earlier, just that NO Victories were scored requiring its inclusion in the reports.
Answer to # 2... I would have to say Cappy. Again if no victories scored, then no record. This has been argued on this thread a dozen times and we both know it can not be proved one way or the other.
Answer to # 3... According to Imrie 425/17 was accepted on IIRC, January 8th. No records known after that date. Dan, this is where I have to say that you seem to always ignore the true facts that we know about 425/17 from the fabric samples that are extant in museums. This is not emotional, just cold hard evidence. The crosses were reduced according to the March 15th? orders requiring the change to straight sided crosses. There is NO evidence of any Fokker Olive streaking, or reduction of the crosses with olive. This is FACT! Proven by the research of Allen Toulle ( Please forgive my spelling) Stated many times in this thread and many other threads, and to the best of my knowledge NEVER Truthfully addressed by you? NO emotion, please explain why if 425/17 was NOT already finished in Red for MvR then why the changes in Red and not Olive? Does this prove the all red DR1 at Lechelle is 425/17, NO, but coupled with the Combat reports reference 477/17 it does "seem" to fit the requirements more than an all red 477/17.
Question #4... I believe this is the same answer as question #1
Dan, no disrespect but look at your own "FACTS" Are they not suppositions based on combat reports, victories scored while flying 477/17, and then combined with the contemporary correspondents description of MvRs regular aircraft being all RED? Do you have any "secret Photos" in your collection as acer does that show the werke number, or the military number? These would be facts! All else, including my opinion, Imries opinion, GvWs opinion,Tazs opinion, Langdons opinion, etc. are just that,OPINIONS based on what research we have access to! Imrie states that he believes DR1 152/17 was painted All RED for continued use by MvR as his regular mount. He includes 477/17 as one of MvRs backups in spite of the number of victories scored. Considering that a good portion of your beliefs were based on Imries writings, why discount this one particular opinion? I know before I post this you will view my ramblings as "Emotional" They are not! I am merely stating that there are really very few "FACTS" available when one asks for HARD EVIDENCE. This would require being able to see a werke number etc. As I have previously stated MY OPINION is that based on the extant fabric samples the all red bird at Lechelle fits the description! Quite honestly I would not be emotional if evidence, true HARD evidence were posted today proving me wrong! What we know for sure is that we have a photo of an all RED DR1, flown by MvR, and that is pretty cool in my opinion! I hope you now understand my unemotional opinion,
RAGIII
PS: I forgot that Ferko "Claimed" to have read the 425/17 number from the negative. Seems as valid a statement as you are accepting from acer reference 521 versus 486, or 477/17 ?