The Aerodrome Forum - View Single Post - THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS

m9a3r5i7o2n · 14 March 2008, 07:35 AM

--THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS --
Page # Friday, March 14, 2008
The problems of these crankshafts can be viewed from three positions,

(# 1) PRIMARY SHAKE due to the failure to place eight counterweights on the crankshaft.

(# 2) SECONDARY HORIZONTAL SHAKE due to the using of a 180 degree crankshaft in V-8 engine at 90 degrees block angle.

(# 3) METALURGY!
PRIMARY SHAKE is the result of the lower part of the connecting rod and the throws on that side of the crankshaft where the connecting rods are attached and the lack of a counterweight on the opposite side to oppose it. This is a continuous happening 100% of the time if not counterweighted with eight counterweights in their proper position as was done by Wolseley on their W.4A Adder I, W.4B* Adder II and W.4B* Adder III engines.
HORIZONTAL SECONDARY SHAKE is the result of the upper part of the connecting rod,, piston, piston pin, rings and any other part in that area that contributes to the weight above the center of mass of the connecting rod area. This occurs twice each revolution hence its name SECONDARY HORIZONTAL SHAKE. This was not fully addressed until The Wright- Martin Co. of New Brunswick New Jersey U.S.A. wanted to balance this by using a 90 degree crankshaft after the Armistice of WW-1 was achieved. It can be deadly to small parts that have the same vibration period as the HORIZONTAL SECONDARY SHAKE itself.

This is very likely the reason for H-S redesigning the Magnetos which had to be placed in the horizontal position when doing several other things on the H-S 8B engines. I think that H-S then added a flexible coupling to the two Magnetos to alleviate some of the destructive power of the Hor. Sec. Shake. There may be other reasons but none that I can think of at this time.

A formula for it is listed in Marks Handbook of 1922 on page 56. Also in S.A.E. Journal October 1934 by Kalb pages 26 and 27. I have ofttimes wondered just how much German Engineers calculated on these two things when they were attempting to manufacture V8 engines similar to the Hispano-Suiza 718 c.i.engine.

General Rule # 1, If you greatly increase the horsepower you must add weigh to offset the added stresses and strains.
General Rule # 2,”You don’t get something for nothing very often.” covers this very well. Also did Birkigt try to make an engine that was just too far underweight for war combat usage? A listing of the weight of the Wolseley crankshaft both balanced and unbalanced would be interesting. But a Hispano-Suiza V-12 crankshaft of later years weighed 37% more when counterweights were added. Read page # 271 of Lage’s book paragraph #1. Lines 8 thru #18. A difference of 30 kg or 66 lbs. Also a reading of pages # 269 thru page # 271 will reveal a general difference of opinion about crankshaft weight theory.
If the unbalanced H.S. 8A or 8B crankshaft is 37% wrong on the Primary Shake isn’t that unbalanced force going into the engine itself especially into the main bearings?

The above plus short 225mm (8.858”) connecting rods that were contributing to the Horizontal Secondary Shake. Remember short con rods multiply the Secondary Shake. One formula I found stated that the con rods should not have been shorter than 247mm. 3.8 x (stroke/2) = con rod length of 247 mm (9.724”) Possibly another case of keeping the engine (Height & Width) short for weight reasons or the fact that the original engine was made to have a stroke of 120mm (4.724”) or a con rod of 228mm (8.976”). This will also keep down the overall frontal area.

Both of the items above, out of balances, may have contributed to the Hispano- Suiza Lubrication Problem. This by the possibility that the gear/pinion teeth contributed to the vibration due to the fact that the rolling engagement of the teeth may have produced a frequency somewhat similar to that of the copper(?) pipe itself.

METALLUARGY
Metallurgy was in it’s very infancy at this time. If one wants to delve into this they might read the book, “On Damascus Steel”, by Leo S. Figiel, MD 1991. This will give one an idea of just how long it took to get the heat treatment and carbon into the iron to turn it into a usable piece of steel for swords actually took. The men in Japan turned this into a fine art of work and superstition to do it. The development of tools to check the hardness of steel was probably among the first scientific steps with such people/firms making hardness testers such as the Brinell.

Also the Microscopic examination of the steel was and is necessary to find the actual structure of the steel. Somewhere I thought that Birkigt purchased hardness testing machines from somewhere for testing steels used in the products of Hispano-Suiza but have been unable to find it again.

The company did for very sure send a Mr. Zaracondegui
to the U.S.A. to arrange for the purchase of necessary materials for the manufacture of parts for Hispano-Suiza, this was done around June of 1915. Just what this included is not listed on page 307 of the book, “La HISPANO-SUIZA”, By Emilio Polo. It is also possible that “La HISPANO-SUIZA” purchased Brinell hardness testers direct from Sweden and Brinell during the development of the 718 cubic inch engine.

I haven’t been able to find the dates for the other machines capable of testing the hardness of steel but some of them were after the time of WW-1. We do know that 4130 Chrome-Molybdenum steel properly heat treated did not come before 1920.

Johan August Brinell
Born 21 Nov 1849-Died 17 Nov 1925.
Swedish metallurgist who devised the Brinell hardness test, a rapid, nondestructive means of determining the hardness of metals. Brinell studied many aspects of iron and its cooling. His discoveries about the control of the carbon containing phases is the present basis for the knowledge about properties of steel. The Brinell Hardness Test measures the relative hardness of metals and alloys, by forcing a 10mm hard steel ball into a test piece with a 3000kg load for 30 seconds and measuring the surface area of the resulting indentation. The load is reduced to 500kg for very soft materials and the steel ball is replaced with tungsten carbide for very hard materials.
Brinell is the oldest of the hardness test methods. Dr. J. A. Brinell invented the Brinell test in Sweden in 1900. It seems that Rockwell and Vickers did not make hardness testers until after the patents for the Brinell had run out about 1920.
It is my personal opinion that the problem of the Hispano-Suiza crankshaft was not so much the steel composition as the 180 degree crankshaft and the lack of proper balancing counterweights. Pictures do show that there was no overlap between the Rod journals and the main bearings to stiffen the crankshaft and change the natural frequency.

Dimensions (Lage’s book) of the Main Bearing journals are given on pages 41 left column paragraph 5 as 58mm O.D. x 36mm width early and 60mm O.D. x 40mm width later. Altho there is some differing of dimensions on Appendix II Page #481 where the journal Outside Diameters are given as Main Bearing (Supports) as 60mm O.D. x 42mm width. Connecting rod bearing 54mm O.D. x 64mm width early, 54mm O.D. x 70mm width later.

Altho not a part of the crankshaft group is the cylinder liner which was closed steel at the top where the valves sit directly on the cylinder liner itself. The trouble with this is the difference in the expansion rate of the steel liner and the aluminum cylinder head area. This caused a lot of unnecessary burning of the valves and the valve seats. Wright-Martin changed this to a cylinder liner open at both ends with steel valve seat inserted into the top end for the two valves directly into the aluminum head area. W-M also used much better steel in the valves themselves and this helped the life of the valves and the life of the engine. Later Wright-Martin even changed the name of the engine to “Tempest”. Finding out much about this engine is almost impossible as the present Wright Corp. won’t reveal the location of the information or who holds the rights to its disclosure.

In 1875 Johan August Brinell began his career as an engineer at the Lesjöfers Ironworks and in 1882 became chief engineer of the Fagersta Ironworks. While at Fagersta he studied the internal composition of steel during cooling and heating and devised his hardness test, which was displayed at the Paris Exhibition of 1900.
Brinell Hardness, the test method per ASTM E-18 and Newage Rockwell System selection
M.L. Anderson March-14-2008

14 March 2008, 07:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
m9a3r5i7o2n Two-seater Pilot Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Las Cruces New Mexico U.S.A. Posts: 165	THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS --THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS -- Page # Friday, March 14, 2008 The problems of these crankshafts can be viewed from three positions, (# 1) PRIMARY SHAKE due to the failure to place eight counterweights on the crankshaft. (# 2) SECONDARY HORIZONTAL SHAKE due to the using of a 180 degree crankshaft in V-8 engine at 90 degrees block angle. (# 3) METALURGY! PRIMARY SHAKE is the result of the lower part of the connecting rod and the throws on that side of the crankshaft where the connecting rods are attached and the lack of a counterweight on the opposite side to oppose it. This is a continuous happening 100% of the time if not counterweighted with eight counterweights in their proper position as was done by Wolseley on their W.4A Adder I, W.4B* Adder II and W.4B* Adder III engines. HORIZONTAL SECONDARY SHAKE is the result of the upper part of the connecting rod,, piston, piston pin, rings and any other part in that area that contributes to the weight above the center of mass of the connecting rod area. This occurs twice each revolution hence its name SECONDARY HORIZONTAL SHAKE. This was not fully addressed until The Wright- Martin Co. of New Brunswick New Jersey U.S.A. wanted to balance this by using a 90 degree crankshaft after the Armistice of WW-1 was achieved. It can be deadly to small parts that have the same vibration period as the HORIZONTAL SECONDARY SHAKE itself. This is very likely the reason for H-S redesigning the Magnetos which had to be placed in the horizontal position when doing several other things on the H-S 8B engines. I think that H-S then added a flexible coupling to the two Magnetos to alleviate some of the destructive power of the Hor. Sec. Shake. There may be other reasons but none that I can think of at this time. A formula for it is listed in Marks Handbook of 1922 on page 56. Also in S.A.E. Journal October 1934 by Kalb pages 26 and 27. I have ofttimes wondered just how much German Engineers calculated on these two things when they were attempting to manufacture V8 engines similar to the Hispano-Suiza 718 c.i.engine. General Rule # 1, If you greatly increase the horsepower you must add weigh to offset the added stresses and strains. General Rule # 2,”You don’t get something for nothing very often.” covers this very well. Also did Birkigt try to make an engine that was just too far underweight for war combat usage? A listing of the weight of the Wolseley crankshaft both balanced and unbalanced would be interesting. But a Hispano-Suiza V-12 crankshaft of later years weighed 37% more when counterweights were added. Read page # 271 of Lage’s book paragraph #1. Lines 8 thru #18. A difference of 30 kg or 66 lbs. Also a reading of pages # 269 thru page # 271 will reveal a general difference of opinion about crankshaft weight theory. If the unbalanced H.S. 8A or 8B crankshaft is 37% wrong on the Primary Shake isn’t that unbalanced force going into the engine itself especially into the main bearings? The above plus short 225mm (8.858”) connecting rods that were contributing to the Horizontal Secondary Shake. Remember short con rods multiply the Secondary Shake. One formula I found stated that the con rods should not have been shorter than 247mm. 3.8 x (stroke/2) = con rod length of 247 mm (9.724”) Possibly another case of keeping the engine (Height & Width) short for weight reasons or the fact that the original engine was made to have a stroke of 120mm (4.724”) or a con rod of 228mm (8.976”). This will also keep down the overall frontal area. Both of the items above, out of balances, may have contributed to the Hispano- Suiza Lubrication Problem. This by the possibility that the gear/pinion teeth contributed to the vibration due to the fact that the rolling engagement of the teeth may have produced a frequency somewhat similar to that of the copper(?) pipe itself. METALLUARGY Metallurgy was in it’s very infancy at this time. If one wants to delve into this they might read the book, “On Damascus Steel”, by Leo S. Figiel, MD 1991. This will give one an idea of just how long it took to get the heat treatment and carbon into the iron to turn it into a usable piece of steel for swords actually took. The men in Japan turned this into a fine art of work and superstition to do it. The development of tools to check the hardness of steel was probably among the first scientific steps with such people/firms making hardness testers such as the Brinell. Also the Microscopic examination of the steel was and is necessary to find the actual structure of the steel. Somewhere I thought that Birkigt purchased hardness testing machines from somewhere for testing steels used in the products of Hispano-Suiza but have been unable to find it again. The company did for very sure send a Mr. Zaracondegui to the U.S.A. to arrange for the purchase of necessary materials for the manufacture of parts for Hispano-Suiza, this was done around June of 1915. Just what this included is not listed on page 307 of the book, “La HISPANO-SUIZA”, By Emilio Polo. It is also possible that “La HISPANO-SUIZA” purchased Brinell hardness testers direct from Sweden and Brinell during the development of the 718 cubic inch engine. I haven’t been able to find the dates for the other machines capable of testing the hardness of steel but some of them were after the time of WW-1. We do know that 4130 Chrome-Molybdenum steel properly heat treated did not come before 1920. Johan August Brinell Born 21 Nov 1849-Died 17 Nov 1925. Swedish metallurgist who devised the Brinell hardness test, a rapid, nondestructive means of determining the hardness of metals. Brinell studied many aspects of iron and its cooling. His discoveries about the control of the carbon containing phases is the present basis for the knowledge about properties of steel. The Brinell Hardness Test measures the relative hardness of metals and alloys, by forcing a 10mm hard steel ball into a test piece with a 3000kg load for 30 seconds and measuring the surface area of the resulting indentation. The load is reduced to 500kg for very soft materials and the steel ball is replaced with tungsten carbide for very hard materials. Brinell is the oldest of the hardness test methods. Dr. J. A. Brinell invented the Brinell test in Sweden in 1900. It seems that Rockwell and Vickers did not make hardness testers until after the patents for the Brinell had run out about 1920. It is my personal opinion that the problem of the Hispano-Suiza crankshaft was not so much the steel composition as the 180 degree crankshaft and the lack of proper balancing counterweights. Pictures do show that there was no overlap between the Rod journals and the main bearings to stiffen the crankshaft and change the natural frequency. Dimensions (Lage’s book) of the Main Bearing journals are given on pages 41 left column paragraph 5 as 58mm O.D. x 36mm width early and 60mm O.D. x 40mm width later. Altho there is some differing of dimensions on Appendix II Page #481 where the journal Outside Diameters are given as Main Bearing (Supports) as 60mm O.D. x 42mm width. Connecting rod bearing 54mm O.D. x 64mm width early, 54mm O.D. x 70mm width later. Altho not a part of the crankshaft group is the cylinder liner which was closed steel at the top where the valves sit directly on the cylinder liner itself. The trouble with this is the difference in the expansion rate of the steel liner and the aluminum cylinder head area. This caused a lot of unnecessary burning of the valves and the valve seats. Wright-Martin changed this to a cylinder liner open at both ends with steel valve seat inserted into the top end for the two valves directly into the aluminum head area. W-M also used much better steel in the valves themselves and this helped the life of the valves and the life of the engine. Later Wright-Martin even changed the name of the engine to “Tempest”. Finding out much about this engine is almost impossible as the present Wright Corp. won’t reveal the location of the information or who holds the rights to its disclosure. In 1875 Johan August Brinell began his career as an engineer at the Lesjöfers Ironworks and in 1882 became chief engineer of the Fagersta Ironworks. While at Fagersta he studied the internal composition of steel during cooling and heating and devised his hardness test, which was displayed at the Paris Exhibition of 1900. Brinell Hardness, the test method per ASTM E-18 and Newage Rockwell System selection M.L. Anderson March-14-2008 Last edited by m9a3r5i7o2n; 14 March 2008 at 08:22 AM.