Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenLawson
Flypaper - You seem to be taking things way too personally, as though it is directed at you. I am simply adding to the information that we have here. It is not about you. Alan's research in the arena of French colouring is at the leading edge of the study. Like any other company French manufacturers used what they had and were allowed to use by contract. As Dan San Abbott has said and I agree with, you can't take a few solitary examples and expect to outline a whole production batch or a series. We try to look at the production batch as a whole and note what was happening there over-all.
French manufacturers often had more than one type of aircraft on the factory floor under construction. Spad VII and XII and XIII types were a typical example. Contracts had to be fulfilled and there is often no clear cut definition when certain finishes were adopted. But referencing photo evidence of all these types does give us a clearer image. Typically 5 colour camouflage started showing up on late Spad VII, XII and early Spad XIII (late 1917 - early 1918) at the same time. So ecru wold have been a colour used in all of these examples. As has been mentioned previously Alan notes that there are certain anomalies.
Transferring this application to the Nieuport series one can almost track the various camouflages by examples that were produced at the same time. This over-view of these airframes helps us understand the situation at the time of production.
Going through "Project Butterfly" we can get a serial listing of a large section of each Spad production batch by airframe and when they left the factory or were at the front and whether it had camouflage or not. This is not a portion of the articles that is generally discussed. So giving more information to everyone helps us have a better understanding of the subject at hand.
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When a poster Dan Abbott tells me "to stop posting" because I come aboard with new information he doesn't like your damn right I take it personally, that comment was directed at . Especially when his information on French camo is so-so at best, and hasn't gotten past the Butterfly articles because according to him everything else is just rehash.
The supposed information you added was 180 degrees from what Alan T's letter concerning the 2 Spad VII original fabric said. It was not painted. and the a/c was not monotone the metal panels were a different color than the fabric. Were was the new information in your post? I'm not the one knocking Alan's research it seems that you and Dan Abbott can't seem to grasp what he is saying. His letter was very clear about the finish on the Paris Spad VII.
Moving on to the 5 color camo he makes it very clear that the Salmson (which were finished with the same pigmented covering as the Spad XIII) "Left the factory with a wet look". It also seems according to a Over The Front series on the Salmson there was a distinct pattern paint scheme on them also.
As far as the factory floor is concerned it may have been busy but it was not chaotic as you suggest, the various factories that produced the XIII were given a complete set of drawings that showed them the how the XIII was to be painted, there may have been some artistic license, but the proof of it is that even today we can tell who manufactured which XIII by only looking at the camo pattern, nothing slip-shod about that as you suggest. You keep mentioning reference photos that prove a point I have yet to see one,in the mean time I have put up photos and color chips taken right from the Methuen book (as per Alan T's call outs in Paris), Ive also posted photos that show the "wet" look that was my point and they are certainly show the a/c as matte finishes as Dan Abbott swore up and down they were.
I dint think you fully read my postings....you bring up ecru , You posted the term ecru when you were talking about the finish on the N16. I said in a later posting that my notes mention ecru for the first time when it is used to describe the under side color of the XIII, I cant speak for the XII but your assertion that ecru as a
separate colorwas applied to the VII I have to disagree with since Alan T's research confirms that the fabric on the VII was clear coated and any "color" was a result of the clear coat and the fatty varnish used on the VII's.
Since the research material we have is small and tied to certain aircraft the conclusions are going to based on what they say. You saying that they cant be taken as proof of the entire picture is to deny what is clearly in front of you. Your saying that since here is not a a large amount of proof we should toss out what we do have because it doesn't add up to a mountain. Lets toss out the baby with he bath water.
I am looking forward to you supplying the serial # of the XIII's from Butterfly. Are you aware that the shape and placement of the "S" on the rudder before the serial number also can help identify particular builders.
Flypaper