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R Gannon · 3 October 2009, 10:46 PM

Mig 77

I'll adress MvR v SE5's in a later post - but be sure they never ran away.

Jim

It was just a what if to get people thinking. As I see it odds were rather stacked in MvR's favour and I believe he was always careful to keep it that way - I look on him more as an accomplished and effective hunter than a 'gun' air fighter.

Onwards with Udet.

11th Luftseige on 24 Sep 17 - big question mark here - would seem to have claimed a 'pusher' - but none in use anymore in daylight hours also no loss of any type at location & loc.

# 12 & 13 on 28 Sep 17 - these were two Camels of 43 Sqn B6209 went down in flames German side and B2366 (Capt Wynn) engine shot up FTL British side. Apparently Udet was able to creep up unseen on 43 Sqn's 5 man patrol despatching a rear one in flames from 30m and then shooting down the leader (Wynn). All it would be claimed in 20 seconds. Pointedly however Wynn claimed an Alb Sct OOC in return; suggesting the engagement was not as one sided as Udet would later paint. It is also worth noting 43 Sqn had only just swaped their Sopwith Struuters for Camels and probably pilots were not as vigilant as they should have been - observers had previously looked to rear. But still this is one of Udet's most effective engagements.

# 14 - 18 Oct 17 - Lt Gilbert 56 Sqn already discussed. However raises an interesting point Fall of an Eagle misdates this fight as 1 Oct 17 and then goes on to relate how Udet helped cfm Js 17 ace Ostv Buckler's 16th vic. Going on to further state that during the afternoon Udet attacked but was himself shot down by an RE8 - crashing in trenches area of Diximude. Buckler's 16th was actually obtained on 11 Oct 17 - all a little confusing, but as a purist I would love to be able to identify the successful RE8 crew.

On 7 Nov 17 Udet became Staffelfuhrer of Js 37.

#15 - 28 Nov 17 - credited with a DH5 - jenseits (other side) which Udet would claim 'broke up' but only loss was 32 Sqn's Lt Francis who was wia but made safe return.

# 16 - 5 Dec 17 - an SE5! again Jenseits. Pointedly there are two other like German 'confirmed' claims at same loc & time - by Ltn Muller of Js 2 & a FAA 211 crew. Now the only realistic contender for all three is the 70 Sqn Camel of 2Lt Runnels-Moss. He had been the last man in a patrol which was attacked by two Alb Scouts (Udet & Muller?) and was sent down in flames crashing just inside Brit lines. 2Lt Quigley of same patrol turned on the attackers and drove one down from 9,000 to 5,000ft where he left it going down vertical and smoking - this was cfm by Lt Hobson!

Whislt this is purely speculation : I rather like the photo in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' of a rather dishevelled Udet sitting in cotpit of his Alb DV 'Lo' with bullet holes (apparently 21 in all), with caption '15 min after having his tail feathers plucked.'

#17 - 6 Jan 18 - Nieuport - at same time & loc a six strong 29 Sqn patrol was dived on by 2 Alb Scouts and saw Capt Rusby wia but able to make safe return in B6831. Capt Payne crashed one of the attackers NE of Staden whilst the other was driven east.

Indeed there is a patern late 17 early 18 of German scouts (often in pairs) diving 'hit and run style' on British formation just as they were about to re-cross lines. My suspiscion being that Jasta pilots at this stage were gambling on the 'Sopwiths' to be low on both fuel & ammo and would not be in good position to retaliate. Although I don't think this was part of planning, but when successful the victims often burst into flames - a product I think of having little fuel in tanks that lead more readily to ignition.

# 18 - 28 Jan 18 - Spowith - Jenseits - another question mark claim.

# 19 - 29 Jan 18 - Bristol - Jenseits - again another question mark claim.

More to follow.

Cheers Russ

3 October 2009, 10:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
R Gannon Forum Ace Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 1,445	Mig 77 I'll adress MvR v SE5's in a later post - but be sure they never ran away. Jim It was just a what if to get people thinking. As I see it odds were rather stacked in MvR's favour and I believe he was always careful to keep it that way - I look on him more as an accomplished and effective hunter than a 'gun' air fighter. Onwards with Udet. 11th Luftseige on 24 Sep 17 - big question mark here - would seem to have claimed a 'pusher' - but none in use anymore in daylight hours also no loss of any type at location & loc. # 12 & 13 on 28 Sep 17 - these were two Camels of 43 Sqn B6209 went down in flames German side and B2366 (Capt Wynn) engine shot up FTL British side. Apparently Udet was able to creep up unseen on 43 Sqn's 5 man patrol despatching a rear one in flames from 30m and then shooting down the leader (Wynn). All it would be claimed in 20 seconds. Pointedly however Wynn claimed an Alb Sct OOC in return; suggesting the engagement was not as one sided as Udet would later paint. It is also worth noting 43 Sqn had only just swaped their Sopwith Struuters for Camels and probably pilots were not as vigilant as they should have been - observers had previously looked to rear. But still this is one of Udet's most effective engagements. # 14 - 18 Oct 17 - Lt Gilbert 56 Sqn already discussed. However raises an interesting point Fall of an Eagle misdates this fight as 1 Oct 17 and then goes on to relate how Udet helped cfm Js 17 ace Ostv Buckler's 16th vic. Going on to further state that during the afternoon Udet attacked but was himself shot down by an RE8 - crashing in trenches area of Diximude. Buckler's 16th was actually obtained on 11 Oct 17 - all a little confusing, but as a purist I would love to be able to identify the successful RE8 crew. On 7 Nov 17 Udet became Staffelfuhrer of Js 37. #15 - 28 Nov 17 - credited with a DH5 - jenseits (other side) which Udet would claim 'broke up' but only loss was 32 Sqn's Lt Francis who was wia but made safe return. # 16 - 5 Dec 17 - an SE5! again Jenseits. Pointedly there are two other like German 'confirmed' claims at same loc & time - by Ltn Muller of Js 2 & a FAA 211 crew. Now the only realistic contender for all three is the 70 Sqn Camel of 2Lt Runnels-Moss. He had been the last man in a patrol which was attacked by two Alb Scouts (Udet & Muller?) and was sent down in flames crashing just inside Brit lines. 2Lt Quigley of same patrol turned on the attackers and drove one down from 9,000 to 5,000ft where he left it going down vertical and smoking - this was cfm by Lt Hobson! Whislt this is purely speculation : I rather like the photo in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' of a rather dishevelled Udet sitting in cotpit of his Alb DV 'Lo' with bullet holes (apparently 21 in all), with caption '15 min after having his tail feathers plucked.' #17 - 6 Jan 18 - Nieuport - at same time & loc a six strong 29 Sqn patrol was dived on by 2 Alb Scouts and saw Capt Rusby wia but able to make safe return in B6831. Capt Payne crashed one of the attackers NE of Staden whilst the other was driven east. Indeed there is a patern late 17 early 18 of German scouts (often in pairs) diving 'hit and run style' on British formation just as they were about to re-cross lines. My suspiscion being that Jasta pilots at this stage were gambling on the 'Sopwiths' to be low on both fuel & ammo and would not be in good position to retaliate. Although I don't think this was part of planning, but when successful the victims often burst into flames - a product I think of having little fuel in tanks that lead more readily to ignition. # 18 - 28 Jan 18 - Spowith - Jenseits - another question mark claim. # 19 - 29 Jan 18 - Bristol - Jenseits - again another question mark claim. More to follow. Cheers Russ __________________ Our hearts so stout has got us fame For soon 'tis known from where we came Where'er we go they fear the name Of Garryowen in glory.