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R Gannon · 4 October 2009, 08:59 PM

Jim

This is how I read the fateful fight on 23 Nov 16:

Whilst on OP the newly arrived 24 Sqn OC, Maj Hawker led Capt Andrews & Lt Saundby of A Flight in the pursuit of 2 'Rolands' flying at 2000m north east to towards region of Achiet le Grand. Capt Andrews however was concerned, as this was 6km behind German lines and there were two formations of HA above. Just as Hawker dived to attack one of these formations - Jasta 2 -came down on the the three DH2's. Now setting aside the gloss of MvR's later account, his CR states: 'I attacked with two other planes, a Vickers one seater at 3,000m altitude...' From his CR we can identify these as Ltn Wortmann & Ltn Collin. Two other Alb D's also attacked Lt Saundby. Now Capt Andrews flew to Hawker's aid and drove off one of the attackers, but in turn was assailed by another EA scout, which shot his engine about forcing him to make for British lines. At the same time Saundby who had shook of his two attackers (who made of to east) went to Andrew's aid and apparently sent his assailant down OOC. I think it would be reasonable to identify these particular two EA as being flown by Wortmann & Collin. This now left MvR as Hawker's sole assalant; who in a 3 to 5 min 'curve fight' drove his DH 2 down to 500m. Hawker in his 100hp one gunned DH2 was now some 5-6 km behind German lines with a 160hp two gunned enemy scout above him driving him down. He had no alternative to break for British lines allowing MvR a straight shot - MvR fire taking effect after 600 rounds.

It is also worth noting that 'Rolands' is often the British pilots 'best guess' for the new Alb D scouts at this juncture - possibly suggesting that the two 'Roland's' were the 'lower flight' of the Js 2 combat mission - acting as bait to draw the DH2's deeper into German territory and deeper into trouble - the casualty return does in fact state Hawker was lost in a combat with 8 HA!

As I see it, this was nothing more than cold calculating 'scientific fighting' on the part of MvR and Js 2 - aided by Hawker's lack of recent operational experience. Upwards of 8 superior fighters luring and then assailing 3 inferior fighter types into a fight with a height disadvantage well inside German lines.

Cheers Russ

4 October 2009, 08:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
R Gannon Forum Ace Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 1,445	MvR VS Hawker Jim This is how I read the fateful fight on 23 Nov 16: Whilst on OP the newly arrived 24 Sqn OC, Maj Hawker led Capt Andrews & Lt Saundby of A Flight in the pursuit of 2 'Rolands' flying at 2000m north east to towards region of Achiet le Grand. Capt Andrews however was concerned, as this was 6km behind German lines and there were two formations of HA above. Just as Hawker dived to attack one of these formations - Jasta 2 -came down on the the three DH2's. Now setting aside the gloss of MvR's later account, his CR states: 'I attacked with two other planes, a Vickers one seater at 3,000m altitude...' From his CR we can identify these as Ltn Wortmann & Ltn Collin. Two other Alb D's also attacked Lt Saundby. Now Capt Andrews flew to Hawker's aid and drove off one of the attackers, but in turn was assailed by another EA scout, which shot his engine about forcing him to make for British lines. At the same time Saundby who had shook of his two attackers (who made of to east) went to Andrew's aid and apparently sent his assailant down OOC. I think it would be reasonable to identify these particular two EA as being flown by Wortmann & Collin. This now left MvR as Hawker's sole assalant; who in a 3 to 5 min 'curve fight' drove his DH 2 down to 500m. Hawker in his 100hp one gunned DH2 was now some 5-6 km behind German lines with a 160hp two gunned enemy scout above him driving him down. He had no alternative to break for British lines allowing MvR a straight shot - MvR fire taking effect after 600 rounds. It is also worth noting that 'Rolands' is often the British pilots 'best guess' for the new Alb D scouts at this juncture - possibly suggesting that the two 'Roland's' were the 'lower flight' of the Js 2 combat mission - acting as bait to draw the DH2's deeper into German territory and deeper into trouble - the casualty return does in fact state Hawker was lost in a combat with 8 HA! As I see it, this was nothing more than cold calculating 'scientific fighting' on the part of MvR and Js 2 - aided by Hawker's lack of recent operational experience. Upwards of 8 superior fighters luring and then assailing 3 inferior fighter types into a fight with a height disadvantage well inside German lines. Cheers Russ __________________ Our hearts so stout has got us fame For soon 'tis known from where we came Where'er we go they fear the name Of Garryowen in glory.