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R Gannon · 9 October 2009, 05:43 PM

Joao

16 Sqn? I simply cull this stuff off my log where I try to be careful in regards who was shooting at who- will have another look and get back.

Back to Udet.

His final two victories were claimed on 26 Sep 18 in an attack on a seven strong bombing formation from the RAF's 99 Sqn of the Independant Force. An air battle that is somewhat problematic. Problems which have been looked at in Grub St's BABS &

ATL. The problem being that contrary to image presented by Udet in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' - his 6 Strong Js 4 were not the only participants. Jasta 3, Jasta 77 & Jasta 15 (from JGII) were also involved - so too a five striong formation of 104 Sqn RAF. 99 Sqn lost 5 machines, another FTL in Allied lines and only one made it back badly shot about. A 104 Sqn machine was also lost. There were howver 13 German claims - four by Js 4, four by Js 77, three by Js 3 and two by Js 15. Some of these were not accepted but which ones depends on the source. The problem as I see it being because the units came from different Kofl's - Js 4 & Js 15 being with Army Det C and Js 3 & Js 77 with 19 Armee. That is to say both Kofl's awarded the losses to their pilots.

Now 'Ace of Iron Cross' contains a copy of Udet's original CR with translation. This also contains a bevy of confirmation statements tacked on; stating a Red Fokker was seen to dispose of two of the DH9's. Some have used surviving examples like this to tout the thouroughness of the German claiming system. However I beg to differ and what we have is an example of a contested claim, where claimee's so to speak, try to sway the mediators so to speak. Indeed his CR is dated 29 sep 18 - three days after the combat. That said I do believe Udet accounted for two of the DH9's. And what we really have is a good example of the falibility of the German claiming system. That there clearly was little communications between Kofl's in regards confirmation of victories - other good examples are 6 Jun 17 & 18 Mar 18.

Summary

A close look at Udet's 34 'confirmed' claims against the British show that 10 were not in fact 'hard kills' whilst 4 others look to have other confirmed claimants. It is also noticable that Udet scored very few 'hard kills' in what one might term classic dog fights - lone ducks, low flyers, tail end charlies & a/c distracted in attacks on 2-seaters & balloons seem to be his most successful fare - and even with the BMW powered DVII - he still looks to have preferred dive & zoom tactics than actually mixing it. In short he was a successful exponent of 'scientific fighting'.

As to his 28 French / USAS claims - I can only go by Grub St corpus, but only 6 certain victims are identified. One is Lt Wanamaker POW of 27 Aero on 2 July 18 - apparently shot off tail of Lowenhardt - problem here is that there were in fact two 27 Aero losses this combat, but four 'confirmed' JG I claims - Udet's, plus two by Lowenhardt and one by Friedrichs (both Js 10).

As to question how would he go against McCudden? If ithe fight took place German side, I'd say it would end indecisive. If Mac was lucky to catch Udet over the British side - I think he would have entertained him in the 56 Sqn mess.

Cheers Russ

9 October 2009, 05:43 PM	#26 (permalink)
R Gannon Forum Ace Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 1,445	Udet - retrospective. Joao 16 Sqn? I simply cull this stuff off my log where I try to be careful in regards who was shooting at who- will have another look and get back. Back to Udet. His final two victories were claimed on 26 Sep 18 in an attack on a seven strong bombing formation from the RAF's 99 Sqn of the Independant Force. An air battle that is somewhat problematic. Problems which have been looked at in Grub St's BABS & ATL. The problem being that contrary to image presented by Udet in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' - his 6 Strong Js 4 were not the only participants. Jasta 3, Jasta 77 & Jasta 15 (from JGII) were also involved - so too a five striong formation of 104 Sqn RAF. 99 Sqn lost 5 machines, another FTL in Allied lines and only one made it back badly shot about. A 104 Sqn machine was also lost. There were howver 13 German claims - four by Js 4, four by Js 77, three by Js 3 and two by Js 15. Some of these were not accepted but which ones depends on the source. The problem as I see it being because the units came from different Kofl's - Js 4 & Js 15 being with Army Det C and Js 3 & Js 77 with 19 Armee. That is to say both Kofl's awarded the losses to their pilots. Now 'Ace of Iron Cross' contains a copy of Udet's original CR with translation. This also contains a bevy of confirmation statements tacked on; stating a Red Fokker was seen to dispose of two of the DH9's. Some have used surviving examples like this to tout the thouroughness of the German claiming system. However I beg to differ and what we have is an example of a contested claim, where claimee's so to speak, try to sway the mediators so to speak. Indeed his CR is dated 29 sep 18 - three days after the combat. That said I do believe Udet accounted for two of the DH9's. And what we really have is a good example of the falibility of the German claiming system. That there clearly was little communications between Kofl's in regards confirmation of victories - other good examples are 6 Jun 17 & 18 Mar 18. Summary A close look at Udet's 34 'confirmed' claims against the British show that 10 were not in fact 'hard kills' whilst 4 others look to have other confirmed claimants. It is also noticable that Udet scored very few 'hard kills' in what one might term classic dog fights - lone ducks, low flyers, tail end charlies & a/c distracted in attacks on 2-seaters & balloons seem to be his most successful fare - and even with the BMW powered DVII - he still looks to have preferred dive & zoom tactics than actually mixing it. In short he was a successful exponent of 'scientific fighting'. As to his 28 French / USAS claims - I can only go by Grub St corpus, but only 6 certain victims are identified. One is Lt Wanamaker POW of 27 Aero on 2 July 18 - apparently shot off tail of Lowenhardt - problem here is that there were in fact two 27 Aero losses this combat, but four 'confirmed' JG I claims - Udet's, plus two by Lowenhardt and one by Friedrichs (both Js 10). As to question how would he go against McCudden? If ithe fight took place German side, I'd say it would end indecisive. If Mac was lucky to catch Udet over the British side - I think he would have entertained him in the 56 Sqn mess. Cheers Russ __________________ Our hearts so stout has got us fame For soon 'tis known from where we came Where'er we go they fear the name Of Garryowen in glory.