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R Gannon · 11 October 2009, 08:45 PM

Greg

Thanks for that info confirming Udet's 10th was 2Lt Taylor - via ST Taylor's OTF article - it will go straight into my log. I gather Udet must have also supplied copy of his CR - that makes three. I also don't doubt Udet was a very good flyer.

Nothing at all wrong with scientific fighting - all the really successful pilots on all sides employed it when they could. I'm just keen to pour water on these prevailling mythical notions about the air war. Notions of all conquering pilots & units and that all air combats were in some kind of neutral aerial arena along the Hollywood imagery of two formations meeting head on followed by swirling dogfight where the best pilots prevailed.

Fokker J

'Scientific fighting' was coined by VM Yeates in his immortal 'Winged Victory' It was a little more tactful than the terms like 'Hunnish Tactics' used by Brit & Dom pilots during the war. The notion alluding to the ancient Huns; who specialised in hit & run tactics rather than to be drawn into open battle with Roman Legions.

Joao

Checked my log - unlikely 16 Sqn - B3416 left at 1505 well after Udet & Obln Reinhard's (Js 6) claims - Albert 1150 & S Mourcout 1140 respectively. The only likely contender this area & time frame is 42 Sqn's B6528 - crew wia (clearly not broken up). I don't doubt Udet attacked an RE8 but it may be that due to fog of war issues he did not see results and a later inquiery of forward units noted wreckage of 16 Sqn's B3416 and the conclusion was drawn that this was Udet's RE8 - only a thought.

An interesting one for all

Now Jim Miller's handsome new tribute to MVR - Ace Profiles -

Manfred von Richthofen - contains a piece by Udet c1929; in which he tells of a combat when flying with MvR against some Sopwith one seaters which saw MvR's Tripe hit in his syncro gear by one of the Sopwiths, which in turn saw MvR shoot off his prop necessitating a force landing in the crater field of the old Somme battlefield - ie somewhere near Albert.

Now in an earlier thread 'Could Brown have downed MvR' I speculated on MvR's alternating Tripe usage & corresponding Brit accounts that MvR might have been downed or at least returned with his Tripe shot about on several occasions: 18 Mar, 27 Mar, 2 Apr, 7 apr & 12 Apr 18.

Now if one does a little scratching it becomes apparent that Udet could have only flown with mvR on three occasions - 26 Mar, 27 mar and 6 Apr 18.

This in turn leads me to focus on 27 Mar 18 - where it would seem MvR flew three patrols:
The first on 127/17 saw him secure his 71st vic - 0900 a 73 Sqn Camel.

The second would appear to have been with Udet along with Just, Gussmann & Scholtz (upper patrol?) - this saw Udet claim that elusive RE8 whist Scholtz accounted for B1332 of 11 Sqn.

The last saw MvR using 477/17 and resulted in vics #72 (2 Sqn AWFk8) & #73 (79 Sqn Dolphin) 1630 & 1635 near Foucoucourt.

Now I'm struck by a combat recorded by 2 AFC (SE5's) 1145-1200 Albert This is the same area & time frame as second Js 11 patrol. In this combat 4 SE5's were attacked by 8 Tripes - during which Lt Hoskings claimed a Tripe OOC - it rolled over, clouds of smoke and fell OOC over Fricoutt. At same time Capt Phillips zoomed onto tail of a Tripe and fired 50 rds at close range - this Tripe fell away slowly!!!!

Could one of these reflect MvR in 127/17? Necessitating final patrol on 477/17?

Interestingly a second 2 Sqn AW of 2Lt Pole & Lt Spence were attacked by 6 Triplanes at 1645 near Foucoucourt (just after MvR's 72 & 73rd) and they claimed to have hit the third attacker causing it to smoke and later seen on ground W Estrees - MvR on 477/17 perhaps.

MvR did not fly on 28 Mar 18 - Udet led Js 11 for first time on this date.

cheers Russ

11 October 2009, 08:45 PM	#31 (permalink)
R Gannon Forum Ace Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 1,445	Greg Thanks for that info confirming Udet's 10th was 2Lt Taylor - via ST Taylor's OTF article - it will go straight into my log. I gather Udet must have also supplied copy of his CR - that makes three. I also don't doubt Udet was a very good flyer. Nothing at all wrong with scientific fighting - all the really successful pilots on all sides employed it when they could. I'm just keen to pour water on these prevailling mythical notions about the air war. Notions of all conquering pilots & units and that all air combats were in some kind of neutral aerial arena along the Hollywood imagery of two formations meeting head on followed by swirling dogfight where the best pilots prevailed. Fokker J 'Scientific fighting' was coined by VM Yeates in his immortal 'Winged Victory' It was a little more tactful than the terms like 'Hunnish Tactics' used by Brit & Dom pilots during the war. The notion alluding to the ancient Huns; who specialised in hit & run tactics rather than to be drawn into open battle with Roman Legions. Joao Checked my log - unlikely 16 Sqn - B3416 left at 1505 well after Udet & Obln Reinhard's (Js 6) claims - Albert 1150 & S Mourcout 1140 respectively. The only likely contender this area & time frame is 42 Sqn's B6528 - crew wia (clearly not broken up). I don't doubt Udet attacked an RE8 but it may be that due to fog of war issues he did not see results and a later inquiery of forward units noted wreckage of 16 Sqn's B3416 and the conclusion was drawn that this was Udet's RE8 - only a thought. An interesting one for all Now Jim Miller's handsome new tribute to MVR - Ace Profiles - Manfred von Richthofen - contains a piece by Udet c1929; in which he tells of a combat when flying with MvR against some Sopwith one seaters which saw MvR's Tripe hit in his syncro gear by one of the Sopwiths, which in turn saw MvR shoot off his prop necessitating a force landing in the crater field of the old Somme battlefield - ie somewhere near Albert. Now in an earlier thread 'Could Brown have downed MvR' I speculated on MvR's alternating Tripe usage & corresponding Brit accounts that MvR might have been downed or at least returned with his Tripe shot about on several occasions: 18 Mar, 27 Mar, 2 Apr, 7 apr & 12 Apr 18. Now if one does a little scratching it becomes apparent that Udet could have only flown with mvR on three occasions - 26 Mar, 27 mar and 6 Apr 18. This in turn leads me to focus on 27 Mar 18 - where it would seem MvR flew three patrols: The first on 127/17 saw him secure his 71st vic - 0900 a 73 Sqn Camel. The second would appear to have been with Udet along with Just, Gussmann & Scholtz (upper patrol?) - this saw Udet claim that elusive RE8 whist Scholtz accounted for B1332 of 11 Sqn. The last saw MvR using 477/17 and resulted in vics #72 (2 Sqn AWFk8) & #73 (79 Sqn Dolphin) 1630 & 1635 near Foucoucourt. Now I'm struck by a combat recorded by 2 AFC (SE5's) 1145-1200 Albert This is the same area & time frame as second Js 11 patrol. In this combat 4 SE5's were attacked by 8 Tripes - during which Lt Hoskings claimed a Tripe OOC - it rolled over, clouds of smoke and fell OOC over Fricoutt. At same time Capt Phillips zoomed onto tail of a Tripe and fired 50 rds at close range - this Tripe fell away slowly!!!! Could one of these reflect MvR in 127/17? Necessitating final patrol on 477/17? Interestingly a second 2 Sqn AW of 2Lt Pole & Lt Spence were attacked by 6 Triplanes at 1645 near Foucoucourt (just after MvR's 72 & 73rd) and they claimed to have hit the third attacker causing it to smoke and later seen on ground W Estrees - MvR on 477/17 perhaps. MvR did not fly on 28 Mar 18 - Udet led Js 11 for first time on this date. cheers Russ __________________ Our hearts so stout has got us fame For soon 'tis known from where we came Where'er we go they fear the name Of Garryowen in glory.