The Aerodrome Forum - View Single Post - Nieuport 17 "X"

Gregvan · 24 October 2009, 08:12 AM

Hello Hal, Manfred and Immo,

The Nieuport photographed with Frankl on 3.8.16 was indeed a French Nieuport from Escadrille N.103. The camouflage is typical of French Nieuports from this time and the large white "X" is very characteristic of personal insignia of N. 103. Quoting from Norman Franks' book Sharks Among Minnows, Nieuport No. N1442 was flown by MdL Debrod of N103 and was lost on 3 August 1916.

Each aircraft in N103 was identified by a Roman numeral on the aft fuselage - the extension of this to the top wing is very interesting. If we could see more of the fuselage side in front of the "X" insignia, we might be able to see a red five-pointed star which was the unit emblem of N.103 at this time - but we cannot see this area in the photo posted by Hal.

You will probably be familiar with the various excellent photos of Nieuport 17 No. 1420 in German captivity. It too was a machine from N.103, and displayed a white V" on the aft fuselage as well as the red star. I believe that this was the aircraft of MdL Seigneurie of Esc. N 103, who went missing on 2 July 1916. He was possibly the victim of von Althaus, who claimed a Nieuport that day. Coincidentally, I have also seen photos of Nieuport No. 1420 in another album of a member of FFA 23.

Anyway, French records show that on 3 August 1916, Esc. N 103 lost Nieuport No. 1442, flown by AdL Debrod. The unit also lost Sergent Jean Mafert in Nieuport N833 that same day. This is sometimes credited as

Hans Müller's third victory, near Verdun at 0908 hrs (edit: however, see Immo's post below!).

As to why Frankl (apparently) failed to receive credit for this victory - or if this victory was "lost" in the records and archives, I have no answer. It would not be the only time that Frankl forced an Allied machine down behind German lines but did not receive credit for a full victory, I think.

Best regards,

Greg

24 October 2009, 08:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
Gregvan Forum Ace of Aces Contributor Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St. Charles, Iowa Posts: 3,626	Hello Hal, Manfred and Immo, The Nieuport photographed with Frankl on 3.8.16 was indeed a French Nieuport from Escadrille N.103. The camouflage is typical of French Nieuports from this time and the large white "X" is very characteristic of personal insignia of N. 103. Quoting from Norman Franks' book Sharks Among Minnows, Nieuport No. N1442 was flown by MdL Debrod of N103 and was lost on 3 August 1916. Each aircraft in N103 was identified by a Roman numeral on the aft fuselage - the extension of this to the top wing is very interesting. If we could see more of the fuselage side in front of the "X" insignia, we might be able to see a red five-pointed star which was the unit emblem of N.103 at this time - but we cannot see this area in the photo posted by Hal. You will probably be familiar with the various excellent photos of Nieuport 17 No. 1420 in German captivity. It too was a machine from N.103, and displayed a white V" on the aft fuselage as well as the red star. I believe that this was the aircraft of MdL Seigneurie of Esc. N 103, who went missing on 2 July 1916. He was possibly the victim of von Althaus, who claimed a Nieuport that day. Coincidentally, I have also seen photos of Nieuport No. 1420 in another album of a member of FFA 23. Anyway, French records show that on 3 August 1916, Esc. N 103 lost Nieuport No. 1442, flown by AdL Debrod. The unit also lost Sergent Jean Mafert in Nieuport N833 that same day. This is sometimes credited as Hans Müller's third victory, near Verdun at 0908 hrs (edit: however, see Immo's post below!). As to why Frankl (apparently) failed to receive credit for this victory - or if this victory was "lost" in the records and archives, I have no answer. It would not be the only time that Frankl forced an Allied machine down behind German lines but did not receive credit for a full victory, I think. Best regards, Greg __________________ Greg VanWyngarden Last edited by Gregvan; 24 October 2009 at 10:19 AM.