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Gregvan · 31 October 2009, 01:57 PM

Hi Guys,

I can't add anything more to this discussion than what has already been very capably summarized by JFM and others.

First of all, to my knowledge there is no proof that D.III 2099/16 was ever flown by

Kurt Wolff. The photo of this D.III overturned on the RR tracks was published in Thor Goote's propagandistic novel about MvR and Jasta 11, entitled ...'rangehn ist Alles!, with the photo caption "Notlandung nach Luftkampf". Some years ago, Nick Hauprich, a veteran MvR collector sent me a print of this photo claiming it showed Wolff's D.III after he was shot down on 11 July 1917. I published the photo in my old Albatros Productions book on "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" with a very tentative caption.

However, it clearly cannot be Wolff's Alb from the incident on 11 July, as Bodenschatz says that Wolff's Albatros returned to the airfield, and Wolff "clambers out rather laboriously, holding his left hand out in front of him..." So, it's just part of the Richthofen legend that associates this photo with Wolff, as far as I know.

As JFM said, on 3 March 1917, Ltn. Eduard "Edy" Lübbert laconically described the markings of some of his Staffel mates. Kurt Wolff flew a violette Pflaum, while Allmenroeder flew a feldgrau, or field-grey, crate. It is certain that at this stage, the pilots of Jasta 11 flew aircaft identified by highly individual color schemes, with the color (probably) applied to the entire fuselage - and perhaps tailplane. Richthofen's red D.III was only one among several brightly colored aircraft of the Staffel at this time. It would be my guess, and that's all that it is, that Wolff's machine was painted 'plum purple' on the fuselage and tail, possibly obscuring the crosses. To my knowledge, there's no evidence that Allmeroder ever flew a "green" Albatros, though 'field grey' sometimes had a distinct greenish tinge.

Interestingly, both 60 Sqdn vets "Willy" Fry and his friend "Grid" Caldwell described an encounter with what might have been Jasta 11 on 29 January 1917. Fry wrote: "They were all colours of the rainbow and led by a blood-red plane. I specially remember the dull blood-red hue of that machine, for it was nothing like as showy as the others which were all painted in bright mixed colours and patterns, in vivid contrast to the snow-white clouds below them."

Caldwell wrote in a letter to Fry: "I remember a pretty hectic little do, Meintjes, you and I had in early '17 when we changed a line patrol into an offensive patrol and ran into 8 good Hun Albatri led by a red fellow which could well have been our friend Richthofen."

As JFM pointed out, it's only after mid to late April 1917 that many of the Jasta 11 Albatrosse were painted largely red on their fuselages, in order to render Richthofen's machine less conspicuous. At that point - according to Lothar's off-handed description - Wolff apparently flew a largely red-fuselaged D.III (possibly 632/17) with green trim. However, it's worth noting that fellow Jasta 11 pilot Ltn. Georg Simon flew D.III 2015/16 which had a red fuselage with a green band around it - at least, he was captured in it. Remember, Lothar was writing this little account after the war, many months after the fact, and in my opinion he sort of blended some hazy recollections of Jasta 11 markings into his vague little description.

Also, in my opinion, it would be a fruitless endeavor to attempt to apply any very specific color notation from Methuen or Federal Standards, etc to Wolff's "plum purple" Albatros, based only on a brief mention by Lübbert!

Better to go to the grocery story, buy a ripe plum and try to match that!!

Greg

31 October 2009, 01:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
Gregvan Forum Ace of Aces Contributor Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St. Charles, Iowa Posts: 3,626	Hi Guys, I can't add anything more to this discussion than what has already been very capably summarized by JFM and others. First of all, to my knowledge there is no proof that D.III 2099/16 was ever flown by Kurt Wolff. The photo of this D.III overturned on the RR tracks was published in Thor Goote's propagandistic novel about MvR and Jasta 11, entitled ...'rangehn ist Alles!, with the photo caption "Notlandung nach Luftkampf". Some years ago, Nick Hauprich, a veteran MvR collector sent me a print of this photo claiming it showed Wolff's D.III after he was shot down on 11 July 1917. I published the photo in my old Albatros Productions book on "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" with a very tentative caption. However, it clearly cannot be Wolff's Alb from the incident on 11 July, as Bodenschatz says that Wolff's Albatros returned to the airfield, and Wolff "clambers out rather laboriously, holding his left hand out in front of him..." So, it's just part of the Richthofen legend that associates this photo with Wolff, as far as I know. As JFM said, on 3 March 1917, Ltn. Eduard "Edy" Lübbert laconically described the markings of some of his Staffel mates. Kurt Wolff flew a violette Pflaum, while Allmenroeder flew a feldgrau, or field-grey, crate. It is certain that at this stage, the pilots of Jasta 11 flew aircaft identified by highly individual color schemes, with the color (probably) applied to the entire fuselage - and perhaps tailplane. Richthofen's red D.III was only one among several brightly colored aircraft of the Staffel at this time. It would be my guess, and that's all that it is, that Wolff's machine was painted 'plum purple' on the fuselage and tail, possibly obscuring the crosses. To my knowledge, there's no evidence that Allmeroder ever flew a "green" Albatros, though 'field grey' sometimes had a distinct greenish tinge. Interestingly, both 60 Sqdn vets "Willy" Fry and his friend "Grid" Caldwell described an encounter with what might have been Jasta 11 on 29 January 1917. Fry wrote: "They were all colours of the rainbow and led by a blood-red plane. I specially remember the dull blood-red hue of that machine, for it was nothing like as showy as the others which were all painted in bright mixed colours and patterns, in vivid contrast to the snow-white clouds below them." Caldwell wrote in a letter to Fry: "I remember a pretty hectic little do, Meintjes, you and I had in early '17 when we changed a line patrol into an offensive patrol and ran into 8 good Hun Albatri led by a red fellow which could well have been our friend Richthofen." As JFM pointed out, it's only after mid to late April 1917 that many of the Jasta 11 Albatrosse were painted largely red on their fuselages, in order to render Richthofen's machine less conspicuous. At that point - according to Lothar's off-handed description - Wolff apparently flew a largely red-fuselaged D.III (possibly 632/17) with green trim. However, it's worth noting that fellow Jasta 11 pilot Ltn. Georg Simon flew D.III 2015/16 which had a red fuselage with a green band around it - at least, he was captured in it. Remember, Lothar was writing this little account after the war, many months after the fact, and in my opinion he sort of blended some hazy recollections of Jasta 11 markings into his vague little description. Also, in my opinion, it would be a fruitless endeavor to attempt to apply any very specific color notation from Methuen or Federal Standards, etc to Wolff's "plum purple" Albatros, based only on a brief mention by Lübbert! Better to go to the grocery story, buy a ripe plum and try to match that!! Greg __________________ Greg VanWyngarden Last edited by Gregvan; 31 October 2009 at 07:02 PM.