Where did all those Liberty engines go?

[Shooter]

*a tip of the Halo hat toward Langdon* Much grass, dude. For any of you real sailors out there, this boat was all wood. Leaked like a sieve, but she sailed like a down-feather across a wind-swept pond.

I couldn't tighten a sheet or secure to a cleat, but I loved when the hull shoooshed through the surf while under sail. There is something about a slanted deck and the rush of the wind....

She was not the same vessel when under power. Sometimes I wish that I was wealthy. Rich men's toys are always the most interesting.


Shooter sends

[retread]

Some interesting factoids;
Curtiss was handed the job of trying to adapt the Liberty-12 to exsisting entente fighters. Upon recieving a Spad he determined it was not up to the task, he adapted it to a Bristol and resultantly the test pilot was killed in the first flight. He tried and succeeded in adapting it to the S.E. 5A and actually delivered 56 out of an order of 1,000 before the end of the war. I wonder if any of these made it as far as the front.
Also, Kirkham was hired by Curtiss in 1915 as his chief "motor" engineer. He was 33 years old at the time. Kirkham and his staff designed their engines from scratch and eventually came up with the K-12, which was lighter, had more hp, and (it was claimed) more reliable than the Liberty. Two Curtiss fighters were designed around this engine. The 18T-Wasp, a triplane and the 18B- Hornet, a biplane. During August, 1918 the Wasp achieved a speed of 163 mph with full military load. The following month it climbed to 34,610 feet for a new world record. The war ended before either the Wasp or Hornet saw service.

[joegertler]

I'd say the answer to the heading of this thread is: Russia..
When I was seriously collecting early engines I'd research where they all went. who bought them up (in quantities) from the government auctions,
(Horace Dodge bought about 800 Curtiss OX-5 engines. He planned to convert them all to boat use, but only converted a portion of them. Speedboats were all the rage-as much or more than airplanes. Later a big batch of these went to another speculator, I forget, now))who sold the WWI engines and parts in all the aero magazine classifeds at the time etc etc.
About 1922 the magazines have long, specific reports detailing the numbers and amounts paid for exported aero engines. About that time, the Russian government purchased just about every Liberty engine they could lay their hands on from every major surplus dealer and repository. It has been years since I read those reports but the numbers of engines they bought was staggering. The prices were not.. If you look at all the classified ads in the aero magazines, you'll notice the number of surplus Liberty engines for sale ads, decline sharply at that time. Aside from that, the Gar Wood and Vimalert companies converted many of the other remaining Liberties to marine use with transmissions and marine drive units. Someone once asked me to go partners with them in the 1980s to look in the waters off the New Jersey docks. He had found reports of the Vimalert warehouses clearing their warehouse for space and pushing unused, surplus Liberty engines, still in their original crates, off the ends of the docks in large numbers. In New York City, my father witnessed auto scrapyard owners who had an operation where they would open original factory crates and hoist Brand new, surplus Liberty engines up on a crane and drop them onto a huge steel plate on the ground. Then about ten low-paid workers would scramble around and pick out the aluminum pieces and separate the other metals, as well. He said you could stand there and watch them do it all day long!

[retread]

To joegertler,
Did the Russians also buy the rights to build the Liberty? I have gotten that impression rightly or no. The Brits used a few in their "Crusader" tanks in round two.
Heartbreaking about the old Libertys being destroyed for scrap or deep sixed. If I had of been there with five hundred bucks and a pickup truck I would have a Liberty in my living room today. The gal would love that.

[Shooter]

Originally posted by Langdon@Nov 21 2003, 11:14 PM
[b] Shooter,

The Liberty 6 is an inline engine.

Langdon, it took some time, and some long distance phone calls, but I got hold of my tower-crane operator friend. He still has the boat, but he replaced the original engine with a Cummins diesel. Something about gasoline engines aboard ship being a risk. There was also a matter of it being impossible to get parts for.

He said that they turned the old mill into a boat anchor (sold it for scrap).

Sorry, mate.


Shooter sends

[joegertler]

Weldboy. There is an interesting, but erratic book on the Liberty, it's development and use, in the Smithsonian Annals of Flight books series.
It is Volume 1 # 3 in the series and is inexpensive and not hard to find.
I think you would enjoy it. I say "erratic because the same book lists the cost/price of a Liberty at $4,000, $6,000, $6,500, and $7,000. It compares it to a later Curtiss D-12 that cost $8,000, while the Curtiss D-12 book in the series lists the price of That engine, as up to $23,500.. As to the question of "Where did all the Liberty engines, go." it isn't very clear in that area either. It has charts with post war sales and stocks but lists no sales prior to 1928. And there were huge govt. surplus sales in 1919 and later, for which I have the original auction sales catalogues that once belonged to famous aero wheeler-dealer, Karl Ort. These auction catalogues list page after page of groups of Liberty engines in each lot-many of the lot descriptions listing all the serial numbers and manufacturers of the engines in each lot.
I don't see any mention of Russian licensed production, but they do report a New York World Telegram newspaper article of 24 Feb. 1941, reporting "Liberty Motors built in 1918 are now driving Russian tanks against the Germans." The Liberty WAS built under license in 1938 By the British firm Nuffield Machanisation for the Cruiser tank Mk.III (A.13). Estimated production was 600 units. As far as the Liberty 6, we had one of the (only) 52 produced and traded it to the Smithsonian (They did not have one at the time) for two Curtiss OX-6 engines in the late 1960's. We had seven Libery V-12s. Sold one with 30 hours on it to the RAF Museum circa 1987 (I belive they put it in their DH.9a and took out the original engine-which I think was all shot up, to put on display, next to the plane, at the time. Sold our last and best one (the one I always kept for our own collection) to a man who said he was buying it to donate to the US Air Force Museum for a restoration/replica of a DH.4 project, circa 1996/8, along with a huge DH. fuel tank that some Vermont farmer had used for fifty years as a water tank in the attic of his barn..(NO corrosion or damage-amazingly-but it was SOME job getting that thing down the ladder from a barn attic&#33 Cole Palen used to have seven Liberty engines. (We traded for ONE of them that he drove down to us on a trailer made out of old bed frames, behind his wonderful HUGE-finned 59 Cadillac. Those were the days...

[chip55]

Hello
There is a bit of info on the Liberty and uses here:
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.js...nes%2FAero4.htm

be well
chip55

[retread]

We mentioned Kirkham and the Kirkham engine earlier in this thread. Turns out Charles B. Kirkham was one of the outstanding engine designers and developers in his day. His family had a foundry/machineshop a few miles from Curtiss's hometown of Hammondsport. They became friends while they both were racing bicycles competitively. When Curtiss started adding engines to his bikes and racing motorcycles Kirkham worked hand in hand with him. Even at that point Curtiss was often using the Kirkham foundry to supply his engine needs. During the war Curtiss was unable to deliver promised horsepower out of his "O" series of engines. The RFC was interested but demanded a minimum of 81 horsepower. Curtiss brought in Kirkham to work it out and the result was the OX-5, which pushed Jennys through the air for years to come.
Kirkham's engines were usually well in advance of their time, especially in the area of reliability. In a age where engines required continual maintainence his just kept go'in an go'in. That was no small feature (then or now). He continued as an engine/ aircraft engineer until he retired in 1940, although he apparently consulted for years afterward. He died the last day of 1969.

[Lufbery]

Hi all,

I know that Liberty engines were used in some post-war aircraft designs too. Martin made a series of twin-engined heavy bombers, the MB-1, MB-2, and NBS-1 with Liberties.

This page from the Air Force museum lists several Liberty engines:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/radial.htm

I did a search of the U.S. Air Force Museum's web site for "Liberty" and it found 62 matches (though not all have to do with the engine). So the Liberty engines were very much in evidence during and after WWI.

The Liberty eventually evolved into the Allison engine that powered the P-38 (and others) in WWII.

Regards,

[baldeagle]

There's a Liberty on eBay right now.......