Aviatic C227/16 De Panne 20-21 th May 1916 Kagohl

Regulus · 15 October 2003, 10:59 AM

Hi,

The list is indeed quite correct, although there are names that are still unknown to it, according to the names found on the German cemeteries. But that is not just the Imperial Navy.
Linselles, we said, I think this is Leisele, which is about 12 kilometers to the south of De Panne, and also rather close to the Houthem airfield.
The photo I have is different and clearly shows the German cross on the wheelcoverings of the plane. There is a similar photo of the wreck in the book of Roger Lampaert, p. 137.
A great Jigsaw !

Best from Johan

Marco_Sommerau · 15 October 2003, 12:06 PM

Hello again,

Johan, the wheel crosses are a false track for the identification. The wreckage of the Aviatik had no wheels when first found. If I remember well, the actual wheels (carries French or Swiss tires) were obtained during the 70s in a trade with Jean Salis (La Ferté) in France. The black crosses on the wheel coverings were painted during the restoration... inspired by the photos of the De Panne example!

As I said before, hummm...

Regards,
M.

Regulus · 15 October 2003, 12:22 PM

Hi Marco,

It's getting late, so I may not be really very awake

nothing special in my case

But if I get the point correctly, what you are saying is that the plane on the mentioned website is not the Aviatik in question that is in the museum.

Do you have any ideas on it's identity ?

What is also curious is that the crew of the plane at De Panne must have lived, as there are no other known casulaties. In this case has nothing to do with the accident at Leisele. Curious thing ! The Jigsaw is getting bigger !

Best from Johan

Marco_Sommerau · 16 October 2003, 02:42 AM

I am not saying this is not the a/c, I only say that an identity can only be established through serious evidence and as far as I know this was not the case of this Aviatik. The original wreck found by the Museum had no military serial or markings other than the ZAK stamp and a s/n (if I remember well this was 832, but I’m not sure). As far as I know there was no trace of the military serial. However, since this wreckage was found it has been indicated that this was the famous C227/16 captured by the Belgians in 1916. I ignore which precise evidence made the Museum’s people believe that.

As I mentioned before, the Museum’s example carried before restoration a dark colour visible in the cowling area, where the side cowlings were located. The enclosed BAMRS photo of the nose area before restoration (sorry about the copyright thing, but it is for a good cause!) shows the dark paint (1) the a/c originally had. Since the cowlings are missing, the unpainted aluminium is perfectly visible (2) in the photo. However, the original C227/16 was certainly clear doped, light grey or light blue.

Other things are also ‘bizarre’, but I don’t want to make it too long. As I said to Yves before, the only way of being certain of the Aviatik’s identity would be establishing the concordance between the serial number and the military serial. If this fits with C227/16, then the a/c would have been definitely identified through serious evidence, rather than from wishful thinking.

Best regards,
M.

16 October 2003, 12:38 PM

Hello,

Many thanks for your informations. I have a few more. I confirm the wheels are from a MS230 and were received from the Salis collection. When the Aviatic was found the original wheels have already dissappeared.

For the colour problems. I Know the pictures Nicolas used to illustrate his site. They are taken more than 25 years ago and the colours are not specialy good. From Pierre Cryns, I learn the cooling was grey (Mouse grey). It was only small parts of fabric on the aircraft when Pierre Found it it the reserves of the Museum. These parts were dirty and covered with rust and by 60 years of dust. But for him, the original colour of the aircraft was some light grey or blue. He confirmed me AGAIN that the Museum was visited by one of the artillery soldiers who shot down the aircraft and WHO CONFIRMED IT IS THIS AIRCRAFT (We have a letter of this person). So we can discuss a long time, I think the next step is to search for number Marco mentioned and then we can go ahead. We had exactly the same situation with the Bleriot, where myself I was convinced based on a rumour it could have been a Military XI/2 in place of the original Olieslagers Bleriot wings. At the end we found a picture of this aircraft taken in 06/1914 and we can check the wings we have are the same as on the picture. So let's be carefull in both sense.

For the fate of the crew, both airmen were found the next morning (after the aircraft has been shotdown) on the beach of De Panne. I thinks the idea they were buried near Houtem has never been explored, so we will look on this side.

Many thanks for opinions and help

Regulus · 16 October 2003, 12:59 PM

Hi,

This makes me wonder... They are not known in von Eberhardt list, they are not on my list of personnel of the German aircrews burried in West Flanders, could they be burried in the north of France ?

Best from Johan

19 October 2003, 01:46 PM

Hello,

If there is no mystery, threre is no fun !
Marco discovered the same kind of mystery a few months ago. But he is really as good as Sherlock Holmes so he find the explanation.
We will find the solution.

Have a nice day

Soderbaum · 25 October 2003, 02:09 AM

Hi again Yves

Your report that the German flyers were reported found on the beach clearly indicates that they were found dead, but do the original report directly say so..?

A possible reason that the flyers not are mentioned in the Eberhardt list, is that could have been reported MIAs and that the French/Belgian did not by some reason droped any report or similair of their fate. So that the Germans still were unaware of their fate in the early 1920s..?

A good source to find information in cases like this is also the "free" Radio station which was located somewhere in the northern Flanders on the allied side during the War...!
Documents from the German side shows that the German military listened to this radio station and thereby could establish the fate of their flyers and boats etc in similar cases...how reliable the reports from this radio station are is another question..

:

Gunnar

Rick · 26 October 2003, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Your report that the German flyers were reported found on the beach clearly indicates that they were found dead, but do the original report directly say so..?

A possible reason that the flyers not are mentioned in the Eberhardt list, is that could have been reported MIAs and that the French/Belgian did not by some reason droped any report or similair of their fate. So that the Germans still were unaware of their fate in the early 1920s..?

Gunnar's suggestion that the crew might only be reported as MIA has led me to revisit the Deutschen Verlustlisten. *Without boring you all with a lot of meaningless details, suffice to say that the DV does not report dates nor units nor locations of aviation losses. *That said, there is one crew reported as MIA in this time frame that might be a possibility:
Ltn. Georg Richard Schulz and Uffz. Gottlob Heinrich Weigle. *As mentioned, no unit, no date, just MIA. *Anyone?? * * * R.

26 October 2003, 06:48 AM

Hello,

You are really wonderfull guys !
Many thanks for the last information. Last Friday I call the Red Cross here in Belgium (here it seem a little tricky to obtain information from the main centre in Switzerland).

I must call back to morrow to hear if here in Brussels they have something the archives (does they have list of German casualties or not).

So with a litlle bit chance (and some help from you) we can maybe confirm the last information.

Many many thanks