Aviatic C227/16 De Panne 20-21 th May 1916 Kagohl

Hello,

On the night of the 20 to 21 th May 1916, an Aviatic C1 was shoot down by the Belgian anti aircraft artillery in front of De Panne (see detailed information at http://users.skynet.be/BAMRS/aviatik/Aviat...ikpage1-fr.htm)

The remains of this aeroplane are now parts of the collection of the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.
We are now working to fill the restoration documents of this machine

The aircraft s/n was C227/16

Although we searched some sources including the very good books published by Grub Street, we are still facing some enigmas

Can anyone help to identify the crew of this aircraft as no official losses are listed on the 20-21 night who can be directly linked to this crash.
Can anyone identify the unit of the crew. We suspect they were part of Kagohl I or III which mounted mass raids on Dunkirk ofrom Ghistelles between 20 & 22 th May 1916.

Many thanks in advance for any information you can provide

Yves Duwelz
BAHA Belgian Aviation History Association

BAHA-Website:
www.baha.be or http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/baha2/ (Netscape)

BAHA Aviation Archeology Site:
http://users.pandora.be/airwareurope/home.html

BAHA Aviation Preservation Site
http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/Aviher/

e-baha : the BAHA Forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-baha/messages

[Soderbaum]

Hi Yves

I dont have the answer but also Kasta 32(not Bavarian) and at least one MFFA were involved in these bombing attacks on Dunkirk.
For example Lt Konrad von Hoyer from Kasta 32 was reported killed on 19 May 1916 at Dunkirk

It is also clear that the so called KG Hoffmeister(which probably was a temporary unit of volunteers) was involved in attacks..

The name of the crew ought to be found in Belgian documents or Red cross material.

I also have a note that Capt Fernand Jacquet together with Lt Louis Robin from Belg 1 Esc shot down a Hydroavion in sea outside Nieuport at 20:30 on 20 May 1916, is this a double claim or a separate ..??

If the Aviatik has Roman numbers painted in the fuselage it is most certain an a/c from KG 1..with the numbers it is possible from which Kasta...!

:-/
Gunnar

Hello Gunnar,

Many thanks for the very quick answer.

For The Jacquet / Robin victory, this is well a victory in relation with these operations but not the same raid. Many authors confused the two losqses but we have the testimony of one of the gunner who shotdown the Aviatic.

I will soon receive a picture showing the fuselage with the c/n so we can maybe learn more.

I will also try the redcross as the Belgian records are not easily availlable.

Many thanks

[Regulus]

Hi,

As Gunnar mentioned, between the 19th and 22 of May heavy bombardments were done on the French city of Dunkirk by planes of KG 1 and KG 3. In this period KG 1 which operated from Gistel seems to have had mainly LVG C II planes and Rumpler C I's but also few Aviatic C types were in use by these units as were Roland C II's.
Also known is the British claim of two planes in this
period.

On the 20th a number of planes of the I MFFA participated in these raids but all planes did return safely. Personnel involved was : Lt. Baumbach, Oblt. Schmidt-Köppen and Lt.d.R. Leffler, Vizeflugmeister Ilges, Osterkamp, Mattheus, Flugobermaate Bödecker, Kuring, Mann and Flugmaat Brandt. They dropped 40 bombs or about 360 kgs.

The only casualty on German side in the area is Lt. Schramm Albrecht on the 21st who originally served with IR 121, but I have no info on the circumstances. Perhaps Gunnar knows more ?

Best from Johan

[Regulus]

BTW, was the planewreckage taken to Houthem ? I have a picture of simular wheels on that airfield on a wreck, as the one on the first mentioned website with the story.

Best from Johan

[Soderbaum]

Hi Johan

Lt Albrecht Schramm was an observer within KG 3/13. His pilot Uffz Karl Reisberg is reported wounded. I dont knew the exact circumstances but the location(Linselles) indicates that it could have been a start or landing accident..?
But it seems to have been well behind German lines, so we can most certain exclude them..

:-/
Gunnar

Many thanks to all of you.

It is already more that we hope to find.
As promised, here is a picture of the immatriculation of the aircraft. As Johan asked it, this is well the wreckrage portrayed at Houtem.
This week I was abroad, but I will contact the red cross this week althought the answer can take some time if there is one after so long time.

Many thanks

Have a nice week end

[Marco_Sommerau]

Bonjour Yves,

I have my doubts if the Museums Aviatik and the coast a/c in the wartime photos are the same machine. The Museum’s example carried before restoration a dark color (visible for example in the cowling, see the photos in the mentioned website) I have a piece of fabric taken at the time of the restoration, which shows a dark green. But the coast a/c seems to be clear doped (or maybe light blue or grey?), but in any case radically different.

If I remember well, the exact s/n of the Aviatik with the ZAK acceptance stamp are still engraved in the engine mount/wood longeron. (C227/16 is the military serial, not the s/n). I advise you to contact Peter Grosz and ask him to establish the serial number/military serial concordance to be 100% sure the existing Aviatik is this one in the photos.

Regards,

Marco

Hello Marco,

Nice to meet you here !
I know you have very good reasons to doubt about some "official" history but in this case we have still original parts of the aircraft with the light grey as weared by this Aviatic plus the testimony of one of the artillery guys who shot down the aircraft. He is now dead but Pierre Cryns meet him in the seventies and he confirmed it was the same aircraft.

Do not forget the Belgian also captured at least one Albatros wearing a dark color (I do not know exactly which color but it is very dark on the pictures).

However, I will search for the ZAK Stamp you mention. Can you communicate to me the adress of Peter ?

Looking in the "Casualties of the German Air Services", I noted it was very few notices about Marine airmen. As I know (and I can very well understand) this list was not easy to establish, is it possible (or proved by facts) not all casualties of the MFA are included ?

Many, many thanks for this fascinating quest.

Have a nice day

[Rick]

Looking in the "Casualties of the German Air Services", I noted it was very few notices about Marine airmen. As I know (and I can very well understand) this list was not easy to establish, is it possible (or proved by facts) not all casualties of the MFA are included ?

* * *I believe the KIA list is fairly complete, as it was extracted from the von Zickerick necrology as given in von Eberhardt. *However, the 'Non-KIA' appendix is woefully short of entries. *As you mentioned, these particular items are most difficult to track down. * * Rick