Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric - Duration Test

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Achim:
* *In the case fabric swatches from Fok. Dr.I 144/17 at the Imperial War Museum in London, it was* Paul Leaman who examined these pieces and he codified the colors. I accept his results.
* *I am curious, what factual information that tells you what the colors were on the Fok. DR.I *streaked camouflage scheme? *From what you have written, I have a feeling it your imagination and not based on the known facts.
* *If you want to really know, go to the IWM and see the fabric first hand. *You won't be guessing then. *See CROSS &COCKADE Great Britain Journal, Vol.6 No.3, 1975.
* * * * * * * * * * * * Blue Skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan-San
* * * * * * * * * * * * *

[AchimEngels]

Once again:

1. Can this experiment solve the question of the exact colors used?

Answer:
No, it can not! It is not even supposed to do.

2. Can the inspection of any old authentic fabric bearing the original Fokker paint scheme solve the question of the exact colors used?

Answer:
No, it can not! At least not until you want to aply the hues of the colors an aircraft would have that is at the age of 85 and was stored away in a museum file for most of this time. One can not ignore ageing of the pieces.( I should add here that the only way to find out how the paint realy looked at the time it was applied would be to do a chemical analysis of a small piece of the fabric and to figure out what the paint was made up from and to remix it. Mr. Kiroff would be able to do such an analysis and in fact he allready offered to do so, but I am not thinking that the IWM would give away a piece of half the size of a stamp to get that analysis done - perhaps the way these experiments are carried out will help.)

3. What are the sources for the colors used with the experiment?

Answer:
The colors used are based on assumptions based on what was provided by the list of materials given in the Fokker factory drawings for the wings of the Foker Dr.I triplane. There are no instruction given on how to mix up the components given there. We will just try it several ways and we will see what happens.

4. What kind of knowledge is supposed to be learned from the experiment?


Answer:
The idea is to watch what happens to the appearance of the colors of differently aplied paints, which are supposed to simulate the Fokker streaky factory aplied paint scheme, if exposed to the elements for a certain time.

To complete the experiment we have to carefully inspect the surviving pieces of fabric with this paint scheme and to document their hues today. (this was done by Paul Leaman in 1965 and will be done nowadys again).

We will then have to compare our results of this experiment in 85 years from now with the results of the examination we have got today of the already 85 year old pieces.

The results of this will not be seen by any of the living today, but by our children.

5. How can we compare our findings today in a usefull way with what was back then?


Answer:
The only way available to us to compare what we have done with that what was done then would be to use the same materials and chemicals to photograph our experimental pieces with and to compare these new photographs with original copies of historic photographs taken back in those days.


6. Can we learn more from that experiment?


Answer:
Yes, we can. There are several things that can be investigated and recorded.

We can go and compare the weight differences between those pieces.

We can go and compare the strenght of those pieces.

And we can go and compare all the results of these experiments with what was recorded back then in the German Technische Berichte and semiliar documents compiled by the British, the French and other Nations. I speak here of general things like fabric strenght weight etc...things of interest for any aircraft designer.)

Of course, these last mentioned comparisations are just for fun, but might well be something interesting to see.

In the meantime: All the FTS is doing with that experiment, is just for our own education and enjoyment.

I invite everybody to participate with suggestions on how to improve the experiment and how to make it more usefull for the comunity, too. In case anybody wants me to document something special, just let me know and I will do.

Those of you who are not interested in the results of the experiment are welcome to stick to watch at an old faded and aged piece of fabric and to paint you models and replicas exactly that way. Or you can go on and produce copyrighted color plates showing the triplane with the colors of the aged pieces of fabric.

To be honest, I do not know by now if the experiment really is able to figure out something special, but I still wont´t in 10 years if I would not do it.

In case the fact that I conduct this experiements in the end leads us to something that really can be considered a strong evidence how they did it, the choice is up to you to repaint you models or replicas.

Best
Achim

G'day, Achim--

Much food for thought in your thoughtful replies. Although I have posed a number of questions about the "experimental protocol" they were not intended to suggest this exploration was not worthwhile. I hope to respond at greater length later.

Just to further the matter of the grayscale representation of different films, see the image below of Brewsters displaying a more typical rendition of the Finnish colors as rendered most likely on a panchromatic film. The the lighter yellow areas and the darker appearance of the swastika even under full illumination at altitude are notable:



In solidarity with yoour spirit of exploration,
Stefen

[wulffo]

As chance will have it i just bought a series of 28 german books on the first world war. these are of the wwi period and covered in light blue cloth. aeging and sunshine as well as offset shelf storrage have lead to a vast variety of dicolorations most of them to shades of turquois. where the exposure has been extreme one would be lead to think that the original colour must have been turquoise. on airplane fabric, with an exposure to the elements as well as the unfiltered uv exposure at hight this process would have been acccelerated significantly.

[GrzeM]

Tomasz J. Kowalski, Polish specialist of aicraft painting schemes wrote that German greens faded to brown with time, because blue pigments were least durable. This opinion is based on examination of the Krakow planes and on the Polish reports from '20s.
Cheers!
G.

[charles]

Not sure I agree with the idea that German greens faded with time. The green paint on the Albatros D.V leg fitting at the Aeroconservancy www.aeroconservancy.com is a solid green and appears not to have weathered at all towards brown. Same with the lighter green on the early Fokker control column, also at www.aeroconservancy.com.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Charlie:
I agree with you 100%. The fabric painting exercise is just that, nothing more and proves nothing. As I said before it is not based on facts. What is the cloth, his grandmother's table cloth. It it bleached? callendered? What is the thread count? What is the weave, 1 up, 1 down? What kind of dope did Achim use? How many coats? how many camouflage coats? Fokker used one! They used copal varnish, Achim used linseed oil varnish.
Did it have a yellow shift?
I still suggest that you go to London and check it out at the Imperial War Museum, they have the olive streaked fabric and the undersurface turquoise blue.
If you really want the exact colors have IWM do a spectral color analysis, which will tell you the exact chemical composition of the paints and dope. It only requires a very small piece, 2 cm square. This is what Alan Toelle does, no guessing, no imagination, absolute facts. He is the man that blew Rodney Gerrard's crap out of the water.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[AchimEngels]

Dan-San,

You are the man - as usual, although it appears to me that you still did not get the idea behind this test.

Well, apart from the fact that Charles did not even place any comment here on the test conducted, just let me place an answer to your notes here:

1. It is not my grandmothers table cloth. The cloth was held by my grandmother. Would you please go to the top of this thread and quote the section where I said it was a table cloth?

2. The cloth is unbleached.

3. The cloth is callendered.

4. The thread count varies and is between 21-28 per cm (lets say close to 50/inch)

5. The wave is exactly the same as is on the pieces of fabric I have of Fokker D.VII 6444/18.

6. The dope used is cellulose acetate.

7. We used 4 coats of dope

8. I used one "coat of camouflage paint"

Now let me ask you one question. What is your source that Fokker used a copal varnish. I know you will not send me a copy of your source documents. So just post a scan here of it for all to see.

Another question would be what the source for the lineseed varnish is.

At present there is only one piece of fabric at the IWM which you can go and take a look at at the reading room. If there ever was a larger and better piece it is not there either or it is not shown to visitors. What I saw was a small piece of fabric of which I do not have any proof that it indeed was from a Fokker triplane. The Museum stuff also does not have. Go and ask Dave Watts if you do not believe me. As I told you allready: Please go on and produce copyrighted information on how the fabric looks today. My interest is to learn something about how time and weather might have effected a semiliar paint scheme * This is just for me...and for those who are interested in...and not for people like you!

We have done analysis of some original old fabric here (not only the pieces of 6444/18 that you know we have). And I also offered to do one for the IWM. I would just need a piece of 1 cm square, but I doubt they would give permission for it. I have asked them, but no answer so far.

By the way, I just have to repeat that you did not get the idea behind that test. It is indeed quite simple. You just have to go to the first entries here to take a look behind it.

And another thing I want to let you know is that I am not the one who compares our test to the IWM pieces whithout having examined them.

it was *Paul Leaman who examined these pieces and he codified the colors. I accept his results.

To ask questions about the kind of dope used and the way the fabric was made that was used shows that you do not understand what the intention is. The result of this test would be even as interesting if it would have been carried out using any other material.

Please be sure that at the end we will produce a report that compares any available data, including what is known from surviving pieces of fabric. This will be the interesting part. Not what you see by now.

I do not know what your problem here is, but I can tell you that I do for sure not care about it. And the more you try to hit me with your entries the more I loose the respect I once had when I heard your name.

Please Dan-San, let me ask you one thing. You are welcome to add any kind of interesting information. Such would be for instance the providing of the sources for the use of copal finish instead of the lineseed varnish, the sources for the way Fokker used to apply the camouflage paint schemes etc. I would be happy to conduct further testings using these methods.

You do not have to send me your sources. Just scan them and place them here for all to see.

I for one do not trust your written words here. It was just too often that I asked you to back up your information. At that time not because I distrusted you, but just out of curiousity. All I got was that:

it took me thousand of dollars to collect...my information is not for sale...

Dan-San, If you do not have to add something here - why is it so hard to be quite? And please be sure I have not yet seen any of your copyrighted information that would be usefull to me. Otherwise I would not go through this trouble here, but use your "ultimate" color chips.

Maybe people out there think I judge you too hard and that I don´t show up with the neccessary respect, but I can only respond that it is your behaviour that leads to it.

In the minds of most people here you are the man - and that is O.K. with me.

In case you feel that this is insulting you again, I appologize, but I just speak my mind - as you do. Your mention about facts just implies that I do not know what facts are. I am so sorry that you do not see what I want to learn through this "fabric painting exercise" that "proves nothing"

Best
Achim

[wulffo]

i will try to post some pictures of these book covers. i am sure you are right about metal or wood painted green. on the cloth covers of the books (printed in 1918) the light blue really did change to turquoise and one would be lead to believe that the original colour has been turquoise. of course i am not making any claim that that would have to be the same with aircraft fabric. it is nevertheless very interesting. proof could be obtained if there was a piece of fabric where part was sewn in over time and one could look at the 'inside'.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Achim:
The British Air Ministry, did analyses and test the German fabric samples. They determine the strength of the fabric, the weight /sq.yd., the thickness of paint and the weight of the paint. some of this data was collected by Paul Leaman from the IWM.
Fokker used three coats of cellulose dope.
My present condition allows about 30 minute on line and I am unable to do much work.
Your best bet is to do what I suggested, go to the IWM and get your information first hand, no imagination, no guessing and you will come back with the actual straight facts. You want to be the expert, then do it like an expert.
Blue skies,
Dan-San