Fokker E.V - D.VIII wing camouflage

[Rob_Owens]

Dan-San, Will most assuredly "practice on scrap" first! The beauty of acrylics is that they can be "erased" with amonia-based window cleaner. I won't be irretrieveably comitted once the brush touches model. Thanks tremendously to all for your help, Rob

[Rob_Owens]

I've stripped a "test" model wing of its previous finish, and rather than try the acrylics over simple "wood" color paint, I'd like to attempt to accurately replicate the look of the "bare" wing first.

1. What was the approximate width of the ply panels/ how many were there?

2. Was the center-section covered first and then outwards to the tips, or was the start point one or the other of the tips?

3. Were there top/bottom panels (leading edge joint) or was a single panel wrapped completely around the wing (no LE joint)?

4. What was the direction of the wood grain (spanwise or chordwise)?

Appreciate any assistance, Rob

[Langdon]

Rob,

The plywood sheets were slightly under a meter, spanwise. Each one covers three rib bays.

The centre section was covered first and so the next sheet outboard overlaps the first and so on.

The bottom pannels were done the same way but the nose piece is separate and is butt joined to the main sheets down the center line of the front spar, top and bottom, these nose pieces are staggared slightly (one rib bay) from the main sheets.

Wood grain is chordwise.

Langdon

[Rob_Owens]

Just the info I wanted, just when I needed it. . . I love the 'Drome!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
In following up on thestaining of the wing on the Fok.E.V/D.VIII, I came across another piece of information for the use of stains and varnish versus painted camouflage.
A document was issued by "INSPEKTION DES FLUGWESENS, B.-Nr.1111/918 Abt.A on 20 september 1918, which reads,

From: Inspector of Aircraft Factories.
To: All aircraft firms.
Camouflage of Front Line Aircraft.
Experience at the front has proved the dark colored printed fabric on the top surface of the wings and the lighter colored printed fabric on the bottom of the wings.
The bright yellow, or likewise bright color of those parts of the fuselage, which are made of plywood, has an adverse effect. One should therefore try to paint the back and sides of the fuselage in a color which blends with the dark fabric on the top and sides and the lighter fabric on the fuselage belly.
To obtain this without increasing the aircraft weight, and to save oil- paints, the Flugzeugmeisterei suggests staining the plywood before applying the the varnish or mixing the Lasur (stain) with the varnish.
Experiments by the Albatros Firm have proved that coloring the fuselage (plywood parts) is possible without an appreciable increase in the all up weight (about 50 grams). Therefore I ask that the plywood parts, as described above, are coloredwhen the aircraft is delivered.
Struts and under-carriage should also be painted in an appropriate dark camouflage color.

This document provides the reason for use of the "Lasur" stains, it saves weight and solves the bright yellow fuselage problem which destroys the camouflage of the wings and tails. also I would think it saves time which saves MONEY!

I wonder if this "Lasur Stain is still being made in Germany. The manufacturers, Fokker and Albatros developed a workable camouflage schemes and Idflieg followed,

A further order was issued by Idflieg, about 16 October 1918 which excludes the Class D fighter aircraft having to stain the fuselage. It states in part:
" This order does not apply to "D" Type aircraft fuselages. These plywood fuselages are weatherproofed to save weight and paint. The units at the front paint the fuselages themselves in a variety of colors."

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Hello Dan-San,

I do not believe this would apply to the E.V-D.VIII, I have searched the web and there are some sites that deal with "Lasur" which they describe as a coloured or colourless wood glaze. The original Fokker E.V wing drawing #33050/1 is specific when it describes the pigments used as "Sch Holzbeize" which is water soluble and would be applied directly to the plywood surface prior to the finishing coats of varnish.

The mention of the use of dark colours on the top surfaces and lighter colours underneath does tend to confirm your ideas of a green and brown upper surface and blue and violet undersurface colours.

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
Thank you, I have a question, Are the color call out on the packets the same as the color designations on the Fok.E.V wing drawing, Mocha brown, azin violet, true green and azure?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

Unfortunately the colour range and descriptions have changed over time, the company producing these pigments has assured us that these new descriptions relate closely with the old ones mentioned in the title block. Their new descriptions are 144 Mittelgrün, 162 Nußbraun mittel, 142 Violett rutlich and 139 Hellblau. If anyone has more information on the holzbeize product range please let me know.
Langdon

[Hans]

Gentlemen,

I only hope that you are not overinterpretating a debatable source. Is there any chance to get a untranslated copy of this parts list? With the unaltered german text? It's a parts list, not a painting instruction.

I am not sure if you are on the right way with those austrian stains.

As far as I can read, the only stain which is noted on the parts list is 'mocha brown'. I am sure that you can get mocha brown wood stain in every DIY shop all over the US. This proves nothing.

I am not a wood worker, but I can remember my father who was. Staining was not only made for colouring, but also gives some form of protection. Who says that this brown stain was used on the outside of the wing...?

Azin violet, New True Green and Azure are pigments. Not stains. You can make stains from pigments, if they are fine enough, but you can make paints also. If I re-translate them, I find that Neues Echtgrün is a standard pigment still widely available, also Azinblau, Azinviolett. Azure is a too unsharp designation, but of course there are azure pigments.

Azinblau/ Azinviolet are Teerfarben, also Echtgrün. Anilin based pigments, aren't they? Those pigments are still in the BASF catalogue and any other pigment catalogues. You don't need any austrian stains to obtain them.

'Lasur' is neither a brand name nor any specíal designation. It simply means 'non-opaque' or 'glaze' or 'transparent paint'.

Is this really an invention on 1918? Did Albatros not use stains on their early D-Series also?

Ok,ok, there is a lot of questions, I know. Again, is there any chance to get an original german text?

Hans

[Langdon]

Hans,

Please send me your email address by messenger or post it here and I will send you a copy of the title block (because of its quality and therefore the need for size it is too big to post here). There really can be no misinturpretation as only the pigment colour, material type (holzbeize) and quantities are given. This pigment is a stain which is mixed in either water or a spirit, it has no sealing qualities. All sealing is achieved using varnish and quantities for this are also given.

Langdon