Fokker E.V - D.VIII wing camouflage

[Lyle]

Langdon,
Very impressive presentation! Thank you for sharing these important photos for the E.V aficionados here. I'm quite excited to see what a coat of copal or linseed oil varnish does to these colors.

It seems apparant from the MAG photo that the streaking is incontrovertible, as well as the test-to-failure photos of the E.V wing. It's also clear from the long-distance shot that the streaks disappear, hence the assumption that the wing was painted a solid color, usually Fokker olive.

Is there a website for Schimek where one can order these stains? It's a good bet that they're not carried by Home Depot or Lowe's.

Lyle

[Langdon]

Hello Lyle & D. Turnwald,

Thanks for your kind words. I will find out how you can purchase these stains and post it here. There are some things that need to be carefully considered before you decide to use these stains, the first is that they are not UV resistant, I have been conducting UV tests at home as we have very harsh UV conditions here in Southern Australia and after a week most of the colour has disappeared from the test piece, this piece was not protected with varnish which may provide some protection and soon we will test for this. The other thing is, because this is a stain it soaks into the wood immediately, if you make a mistake or do not like your result you cannot make changes unless you coat it with paint.

I feel very sorry for those poor wives out there, including my own.

Langdon

[jumpinjan]

Please let me step in here and make a suggestion on these dyes. For outdoor use you need a synthetic dye that is design & used in the custom auto painting applications. It will far exceed those original dyes in light fastness. What you should try is just the concentrate (although, you can purchase by the quart mixed in a urethane resin), and mix it with whatever clear vehicle you want to use: lacquer, enamel, urethane, and so on. Here is a link to the House-Of-Kolor web site;
http://www.houseofkolor.com/hok/products/specialty.jsp
You want the item, "INTENSIFIER™ KANDY KONCENTRATE (KK)"
It comes in 20 colors (which doesn't seem to be on the web page). I have their catalog if you want to know the colors, but they have what you need.
Jan

[Langdon]

Jan,

I really doubt if these pigments - especially if they were mixed with resin - would give the same result as the wood stain, the stain soaks into the wood and colours it rather than laying a coat over it and this is the difference, I think, between the streaky finish on the fabric covered Fokker aircraft and those covered by wood, the fabric covered examples used powdered synthetic pigments (anilin) mixed with varnish.

Synthetic wood stains are available however and these could be a good substitute if they can be obtained in the same colours, I am looking into this presently.

Langdon

[FlyingRazor]

Well, for years now I have and many others painted their D8 wings olive-brown. Hey, it matches the cowling and hoods and it seemed logical. This subject definitely throws a monkey wrench into the equation. I definitely see the streaking on the wings, but as Lyle suggests, the more you move away from the wing the more it looks solid. Maybe that's how a lot of us went astray. My 1/4 scale wing is covered with the same/similar plywood the originals had, although, thinner. I can test out the stains and post the results. Typically, I paint the wing with a final coat of clear polyurethane, achieving the gloss look. One question would be what about the subwing ? Seems to me once you started staining the wing you would continue onto the subwing. Here's my all olive-green wing...



Great photos Langdon, let us know how to get the stains - Glenn

[Langdon]

Hello Glenn,

That model of yours sure is nice, well done, it is hard to tell from the real thing. I fully understand your use of the solid olive colour on the wing, it is a pity that the images I have presented here have not been more available in the past. It seems that many people use the services of researchers but never receive the supporting information, this is not a criticism of the researchers but possibly those wanting research to be undertaken should become more involved in the process as well? Possibly they are and I have the wrong impression.

I agree with you that the more you move away from the wing the harder it is to see the streaky effect and possibly this is due to the transparent nature of the wood stain but also you have to remember that the plywood itself (in between the streaks) is adding colour to the effect, it would be nice to hear about this from those people whose primary interest is the study of camouflage & markings.

My interpretation of the streaking is that it has less of an angle than Dan-San's observed two rib bays at the centre section (although I am keen to be proven wrong), I think it is about half this as the slope appears to me to be at about 10° off of vertical with the slope to the right hand side at the top. I feel this shows that the paint was applied by a right handed painter, the natural tendency being to paint on this slope when using long strokes.

The undercarriage wing still has me stumped, on the Caproni D.VIII the undercarriage wing has fabric doped over the plywood skin and this was also the case prior to its restoration but I do not know if it left the factory this way.

Given that the undercarriage wing is constantly covered with castor oil, as it is thrown from the engine during flight and constantly leaked over whilst on the ground, I feel it is likely that they were covered with linen and sealed with dope and varnish to keep the oil from damaging the wood; if this is correct then it is unlikely that it had streaky camouflage applied in the same fashion as the wing, could it have been printed fabric? Possibly it was painted a solid colour.

DrI undercarriage wings are often painted with undersurface blue as well as an upper surface colour but I have not noticed this on E.V or D.VIII aircraft.

Koloman has promised to supply me with details concerning the wood stain once he returns from holidays after Xmas.

Langdon

[greenknight]

I'm wondering if we can learn something from studying the Fokker T-2 at the NASM?

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero.../fokker_t2.htm

This is the only existing wooden-skinned Fokker wing that comes readily to mind. This example was built at Fokker Netherlands in 1922. I've seen this airplane on display, but its been some years, and I didn't scruitinize it that closely. I seem to remember it in a translucent finish, but of course I don't know how much age and/or restoration may have altered the appearance from what it was originally.

Does anyone think it may come close in appearance to spots on the E.V wing where the streaking was very thin?

In the past I too had simply accepted that the E.V and D.VIII wings were overall olive. Now I ask myself why I never seriously questioned why Fokker, or any other company, would have expended the resources to deliberately darken the underside of the wing of a daytime flying combat airplane. Hindsight, I guess...

Junkers seemed to face a similar issue with their metal wings, but opted to paint the undersides a very light color.

[Lyle]

Greenknight,
I think the Fokker T-2 is a great place to start to get some inkling as to what was done originally. Naturally the varnish has darkened the wood some, although, as you mention, I don't know if the wing was restored since acquisition by the Smithsonian. I would think it's something to go on, though.

Glenn:
Outstanding model, I first thought it was that great replica down at Ft. Rucker in Alabama, until I saw the stripes on the stab! Then the cat was out of the bag...
Do we know what Jasta that one is from?
Lyle

[Langdon]

Greenknight,

I doubt if the Fokker T-2 will shed any light on the E.V - D.VIII camouflage as my guess is it would not have been finished to German Military standards, where was this wing built, Perzina or Holland?

On the undercarriage wing debate, I have seen an excellent photo of this part on a V.25, taken from under the fuselage and looking over the sub wing from directly behind it, on this aircraft it was certainly painted in a solid colour and I think the E.V would have been painted this way as well. A thick coat of paint and varnish and possibly a fabric covering.

Langdon

[Langdon]

Sorry Greenknight, I mis-read your posting. In between the streaking, those areas that do not receive stain, could well look like the wing on this later built Fokker but only if its wing has only been varnished with no other pigment applied. I think the V.26 wing was varnished with no camouflage having been applied as there is a very good photo of it from close up in front and you can see the wood grain on the ply covering.

Langdon