Fokker E.V - D.VIII wing camouflage

[greenknight]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for your patient replies to my questions. Your answers have been very helpful.

I'd like to emphasize, in case it may have sounded otherwise, that my questions have not been asked in the spirit of disputing any of the streaked-winged findings presented here.

Rather my inquiries have been made to understand better the context of the research. I'm interested in "how we know what we know", and also in how others in the past came to the incorrect conclusions that they did. The answers that I've gotten here are helpful in that regard. I figure this kind of knowledge can help me to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past in both this, and future research.

Mr. Abbott mentioned the artist Peter Endsleigh Castle. Did Mr. Castle do the art work for the Profile Publication on the D.VIII? (I have not yet secured a copy of this Profile for my collection.) If so, would the publication of this Profile have been when the olive-winged representation first took hold?

Thank you. Happy Holidays and Best Wishes for 2004.

[Langdon]

Thank you VonHelton and greenknight for your comments, I have no problem with your debating the streaky finish greenknight, I wish there was more objective discussion like yours, nobody should ever except a researched opinion without a discussion of the source material or at least a reference to it. I feel it is time to sort out speculation from fact so that others following in our footsteps can focus their research on the subjects that require attention.

Langdon

[Rob_Owens]

The five-view in the D.VIII Profile has Mr. Endsleigh Castle ARAeS "copyright" in the upper right-hand corner. The thing that bugs me is the monotonal nature of the wing in b/w photographs. I understand that ortho/monochromatic film thing, but why, when other WWI camo patterns (streak,Loz, and all the SPAD variations) stand out so well in period photos, does the D.VII look from many angles to be a solid color? Was it the nature of the stain, and that it imparted little actual color to the wood? Thanks for letting me partake, Rob

[VonHelton]

Originally posted by Rob_Owens@Dec 20 2003, 02:58 AM
[b] The five-view in the D.VIII Profile has Mr. Endsleigh Castle ARAeS "copyright" in the upper right-hand corner. The thing that bugs me is the monotonal nature of the wing in b/w photographs. I understand that ortho/monochromatic film thing, but why, when other WWI camo patterns (streak,Loz, and all the SPAD variations) stand out so well in period photos, does the D.VII look from many angles to be a solid color? Was it the nature of the stain, and that it imparted little actual color to the wood? Thanks for letting me partake, Rob

Early Fokker D7's had the streaked finish, later ones were lozenge.

It is such a stretch then to think that perhaps early Fokker Razor wings were streaked, whereas later ones were a solid color?

[Langdon]

There is no evidence to suggest that any D.VIII wings were painted with a solid colour, As I have stated earlier in the thread I believe the Factory test photo is of a D.VIII wing. It would be nice if Dan-San can support his statement that he has photos showing different styles and possibly an image showing the streaky effect on latter built aircraft.

There was no reason to stop using streaky camouflage on the D.VIII wing, it seems to me that it was only the advent of printed fabric that changed Fokker's use of camouflage style on fabric covered surfaces, to move to a mono tone colour would have been a regressive step as far as camouflage goes and of course it would have used more paint. I think the reason the streaky effect does not often show up is that the stains are transperent, as well as being covered with a glossy varnish layer which could effect the way it is viewed from certain angles.

Langdon

[VonHelton]

Originally posted by Langdon@Dec 20 2003, 06:24 AM
[b] There is no evidence to suggest that any D.VIII wings were painted with a solid colour, As I have stated earlier in the thread I believe the Factory test photo is of a D.VIII wing. It would be nice if Dan-San can support his statement that he has photos showing different styles and possibly an image showing the streaky effect on latter built aircraft.

There was no reason to stop using streaky camouflage on the D.VIII wing, it seems to me that it was only the advent of printed fabric that changed Fokker's use of camouflage style on fabric covered surfaces, to move to a mono tone colour would have been a regressive step as far as camouflage goes and of course it would have used more paint. I think the reason the streaky effect does not often show up is that the stains are transperent, as well as being covered with a glossy varnish layer which could effect the way it is viewed from certain angles.

Langdon

You're forgetting one possibility.........

It might be cheaper!

[Lyle]

The evidence of streaked wings is quite clear when examining the wing being tested to destruction that Langdon generously provided via Dave Watts. And of course the wing of the E.V in Hungary cannot be disputed. So how did the idea of a solid-painted wing come into being? Wasn't the E.V wing repainted when in Polish service during 1919-20, or was it used as-is from Germany? The representations I've seen show a green topside and light blue undersurface. And weren't the examples flown at Wright Field in Dayton painted in USAS olive drab, or left also in original colors? I know the D.VIIs sent to the States were overpainted.

Many, many questions. But I don't doubt the streaked effect on the photos presented here. Considering the shortage of supplies available to the German aviation industry in the last stages of the war, it makes sense to economize with the use of stains---one can accomplish quite a bit with much less as compared to a solid coat of paint.

Just my $.02 cents worth.

Lyle

[Langdon]

VonHelton, I agree with Lyle (actually I'm sure I mentioned this previously as well) the streaky camouflage would use less paint or stain than a solid coat, the only reason people believed in the solid coat theory was because they did not have enough information to suggest otherwise, at the time. If you used the photos from "Windsock datafile #25" by P Grosz as a basis to form an opinion on the wings colour then you could well be excused for thinking it was a solid colour, the wings are always either reflecting light off of their varnished upper surface or they are in shadow and either way you cannot tell how they are painted.

I think the real debate should be, did Dan-San get it right in 1999 when he decided the upper surface has bands of brown and green and the underside has violet and blue? As I have stated previously I believe he is correct. It seems to me that there are a lot of high profile researchers that use the Aerodrome site who do not have an opinion on this matter, thankfully Dan-San has reaffirmed his belief.

The E.V 183/18 used in Poland after the First War could easily have still been painted in its original streaky style although it does have some other bands painted on it, the underside of the wing looks to be very light in colour but it could have faded to this after two years of use, the samples I have from Koloman are very faded now after only being exposed for a month, and not in direct sunlight.

The D.VIII aircraft used be the US Air Service were over-painted in the US I believe.

If I am correct that the wing undergoing testing in the photo on page one of this thread is a D.VIII wing rather than an E.V wing then that photo would have to have been taken in late September or early October when similar testing was being undertaken at Adlershof; if this is correct then I do not believe they would have changed the camouflage style in the last month of the war.

Langdon

[VonHelton]

Originally posted by Langdon@Dec 21 2003, 03:53 AM
[b] VonHelton, I agree with Lyle (actually I'm sure I mentioned this previously as well) the streaky camouflage would use less paint or stain than a solid coat, the only reason people believed in the solid coat theory was because they did not have enough information to suggest otherwise, at the time. If you used the photos from "Windsock datafile #25" by P Grosz as a basis to form an opinion on the wings colour then you could well be excused for thinking it was a solid colour, the wings are always either reflecting light off of their varnished upper surface or they are in shadow and either way you cannot tell how they are painted.

I think the real debate should be, did Dan-San get it right in 1999 when he decided the upper surface has bands of brown and green and the underside has violet and blue? As I have stated previously I believe he is correct. It seems to me that there are a lot of high profile researchers that use the Aerodrome site who do not have an opinion on this matter, thankfully Dan-San has reaffirmed his belief.

The E.V 183/18 used in Poland after the First War could easily have still been painted in its original streaky style although it does have some other bands painted on it, the underside of the wing looks to be very light in colour but it could have faded to this after two years of use, the samples I have from Koloman are very faded now after only being exposed for a month, and not in direct sunlight.

The D.VIII aircraft used be the US Air Service were over-painted in the US I believe.

If I am correct that the wing undergoing testing in the photo on page one of this thread is a D.VIII wing rather than an E.V wing then that photo would have to have been taken in late September or early October when similar testing was being undertaken at Adlershof; if this is correct then I do not believe they would have changed the camouflage style in the last month of the war.

Langdon

Fokker used turquois for the underside of the Dr1 & D6, so it may very well be that color as well.

[AchimEngels]

Von Helton,

Here again comes the myth of the torquise, I see. I don´t agree.

In case you´re interested in my opinion please go here

Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric - Duration Test

to recheck this opinion.

Enjoy!

Achim