N-28's with Lafayette Escadrille

Nieuport28 · 9 February 2003, 01:41 PM

I've the more common books on the Lafayette but have never seen a photo of their N-28's (they briefly used them) with the Indian Head. Does anyone know of a photo? *Thank you..

wingstrutdotcom · 9 February 2003, 06:09 PM

That's news to me.

PeterL · 9 February 2003, 06:44 PM

Don't know where you got that from N28, the Lafayette didn't fly the type. And I'm fairly certain the 103rd didn't either. There was a Nieuport survivor around in the sixties incorrectly marked with the indian head, could you be thinking of that?

Nieuport28 · 9 February 2003, 10:02 PM

To quote *Parsons:

"....some of us weren't too well pleased with having to give up the sweet flying, easily manueverable, rotary motored Nieuport for the heavier, warer-cooled, stationary Hispano-Suiza. It packed a lot more gadgets to watch in the air. *
*So when Nieuport turned out the new "Type 28" with the 150-horsepower Gnome monosoupape or single-valve motor and *the French government ordered quantities of them *for deliveries on the front, *we disgruntled ones fell on them with cries of joy and war shoops of satisfaction.
* We flew the pants off of them for about two weeks and then suddenly, without warning, orders came to withdraw them and, willy-nilly, we went back to Spads.." Upon inquiry we discovered that they had developed a structural weakness, and we were much too busy with other things to *delve further into the cause." *
*Parsons goes on to state that there was "much grousing "when they were asked to give up the '28s but that he heard later of the wing problems when they were used by the USAS..The source is "I Flew With The Lafayette Escadrille" by Admiral Parsons.

PeterL · 10 February 2003, 04:31 AM

Does the passage you quote refer specifically to the Lafayette Escadrille or to US service? By now I know better than to state anything with absolute certainty here on the forum, but this one I'd have a punt on

Cigogne · 10 February 2003, 08:02 AM

Parsons never flew with the USAS, remaining with the French, of which SPA 124 was a unit. He left the Lafayette and flew with Spa 3 of the Storks when he witnessed the demotion and shabby treatment of some of his colleagues when they transferred to the USAS. SPA 124 became the 103rd Aero Squadron. There was a big commission scandal and depite their combat experience with the French many felt ill treated and swindled by the US government. Parsons wisely refused to switch over and avoided that mess.

About the Nieuport 28. He doesn't give a timeframe for this. He may be generalizing here about the Nieuport 28 and referring to he and his French colleagues evaluating the type. The SPAD and Nieuport handled quite differently... and there were many technical problems with the Hisso. There were several subcontractors and this caused problems with the SPAD. Although both had their problems, the Nieuports spent more time in the air. Seems he liked the type, but the situation at higher circles meant that the type would not see official use with the French Escadrilles de Chasse.

Parsons books have a casual style and although memoirs, don't have exact dates, etc. nailed down. They were written after the fact.

Cigogne

Nieuport28 · 10 February 2003, 10:03 AM

Parsons couldn't be more explicit: He states "..when Nieuport turned out the new streamline "type 28" with the 150 horsepower Gnome...and the French government ordered quantities of them..we disgruntled ones fell on them with cries of joy and warwhoops of satisfaction." (Note: "disgruntled" refers to those of the LE who found the Spad more complicated then were the Nieuport types they'd grown accustomed to.)
"We flew the pants off of them for about two weeks...orders came to withdraw them...willy-nilly, we went back to Spads.."
He continues with the acknowledgement of the difficulties the American pilots later had with them "..the fabric of the leading edge at the leading edges of the wing couldn't stand the strain.." ) Quotes here are from the autobiography by Parsons: "I Flew for the Lafayerre Escadrille").
Admiral Parsons seems to be quite clear here about the usage of the '28 in the LE.
...

baldeagle · 10 February 2003, 11:33 AM

Wasn't the N.28 introduced in March, 1918, and the Lafayette Escadrille disbanded in February? I have never seen a photo of a '28 with an Indian Head on it except for Frank Tallman's wrongly marked airplane in the 1960s.

Cigogne · 10 February 2003, 01:28 PM

(Note: "disgruntled" refers to those of the LE who found the Spad more complicated then were the Nieuport types they'd grown accustomed to.)

You are inferring that, but have no way of being sure.

You are basing your statements on one book, but you need to weigh what he wrote in the book, which was years after the fact with hard data about when the Nieuport 28 was released, where it was tested, and by whom, and where, if any service trials were performed and by which units.

Also, his loose language that speaks of "quantities" makes a wrong impression. The Nieuport 28 did not make a dent in the SPAD production numbers, it was a drop in the bucket. The US, basically bought most of what there was, namely 297 examples. This happened in Feb-March of 1918. That isn't a very large number. Maybe someone has the whole range of numbers and can help us be exact. Also, the timeline of the Nieuport 28 would be helpful.

I don't doubt that perhaps ECP could have flown it, but his book, which is entertaining, isn't much use as a hard research tool if you want facts, figures, names, dates, places. It is missing those types of hard data that can help nail down some of these questions. I agree that it would have been cool if the LE boys got to fly them, but I want to see more data before I accept ECP's memoirs at face value.

I'm checking more data and other sources. It is a good question and one I'd thought about when reading the book... glad you all have brought that up!

Cigogne

Cigogne · 11 February 2003, 05:21 AM

Nieuport28, baldeagle, PeterL, et al,

I contacted my friend, Alan Toelle, who is more expert on the history and use of the Nieuport 28 and also the personalities involved. This is what he has emailed me on the matter regarding the Lafayette Escadrille and it's Nieuport use during the time in question.

I emailed him the quote you posted, and this is his response to that:

Your post: "..when Nieuport turned out the new streamline "type 28" with the 150 horsepower Gnome...and the French government ordered quantities of them..we disgruntled ones fell on them with cries of joy and warwhoops of satisfaction. We flew the pants off of them for about two weeks...orders came to withdraw them...willy-nilly, we went back to Spads.."

He continues with the acknowledgement of the difficulties the American pilots later had with them "..the fabric of the leading edge at the leading edges of the wing couldn't stand the strain.." ) Quotes here are from the autobiography by Parsons: "I Flew for the Lafayette Escadrille"). Admiral Parsons seems to be quite clear here about the usage of the '28 in the LE.²

Toelle's reply: Definitely Spa.124 did not fly any N.28s. The Journal du Marche lists all flights and it is possible to identify the type of airplane. Spa.124 had a few Nieuport Type 24 and 24bis in mid 1917. The last Nieuport flight was on 11 September 1917. Parsons' last flight with Spa.124 was on 17 October 1917. The Nieuport 28 prototype was tested at Villacoublay, I think, at a later date. Elmer D. Cook was there and mentions it being tested in October or November.

Parsons went to America in November 1917. He returned to France in January 1918 but did not join the US Air Service. He remained with the French and was assigned to Spa 3 on 24 April 1918.

I don't think there were any such accidents prior to Meissner's incident. I am not aware of any.

Perhaps Parsons was hanging around Villacoublay after he returned to France. He may have seen or have been aware of some of the N.28s that were picked up there by the American 1st Pursuit Group in March 1918. Dennis Gordon doesn't say what Parsons was doing during this period. He certainly was not at the front. Based on the known documented facts, I don't see where Parsons had any opportunity to fly the N.28 and his statements on this subject appear to be completely specious."

That is the end of the message I received from him in email. Now, he did also say that Ted Hamady, who led the project to restore the Nieuport 28 at the National Air & Space Museum had researched this even further. But, my emphasis here is that it is important to back research with hard data such as the "Journal du Marche" that Toelle mentions and of course photographic evidence, etc. These types of documents are a record of the aircraft, serial number, flight duration, etc. They give a lot of insight into flight operations of a certain aircraft type... and when!

Regards,

Cigogne