Mannock's SE5a

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Graeme:
* *Not to nit pick, but, Hptm. Rudolf Berthold commanded Jage Nr.2.
* *No.85 Squadron was based at Petite Synthe about three miles in from the Channel Coast and S.W. of Dunkirk. *This is opposite the German 4.Armee. No.85 Squadron would have come up against Marine Feld Jagdgruppe with MFJ I, II and II
directly opposite them and the Armee Jasta 7, 16, 20 and 40 of Gruja 6 with Jasta 51 and 56 further south from the coast.
* *My best guess was Ltn. Carl Degelow, Führer Jasta 40s. His victory at Vieux Berquin, at 930 hours, would be in the operational area of No.85.Squadron. *However, Lt. Grider may have been shot down a two seater or AAA.
* Hamel is 19 km due east of Amiens. Ltn. Putz was with Jasta 34b based at Foucaucourt-en-Senterre 34 km due east of Amiens on the Roman Road. *There is another Hamel, 17 km west of Douai, opposite the German 6.Armee much too far south of the normal area of operations of No.85 Squadron.
* * * * * * * * * * * A Very Merry Christmas,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San

[Graeme]

Dan-San

Please feel free to pick away

I have Berthold clearly listed as being JGII in my database, so cannot think what possessed me to type JGIII. Next time I'll just copy across the database entries rather than re-type them.

From the Article "John McGavock Grider – Warbird" by Marvin L Skelton appearing in Cross & Cockade Great Britain Journal Volume 11 No 1, 1980:

"On the following day, June 18th, the odds against the inexperienced fighter pilot caught up with The Three Musketeers. Grider (in SE5a C1883) and Springs (in SE5a D6851) engaged a German two-seater while on a two man patrol at 10:05 a.m. near Menin, some seven miles Southwest of Courtrai and fifteen to twenty miles behind the enemy lines. Springs' combat report follows:

'Lieut. Grider and I were on Offensive Patrol at 16,000 feet and sighted EA at about 12,000 feet about 5 miles away. We attacked, I fired 1 Lewis drum and Vickers from immediately behind and zoomed away in a climbing turn. Then I saw EA go down in a vertical dive and crash near Menin Road. Lieut Grider was just above where the fight had taken place.'

Grider did not return to St Omer. After following Springs for a while, they were separated and whether Grider was brought down by ground fire or by enemy aircraft will probably never be known.19 On June 23rd, Springs wrote Grider's sister:

'Mac gave me your address in case anything happened to him and so I writing you all I know.

'On the 18th, Mac and I were over the lines and we saw a German two-seater about five miles away and about twelve thousand feet. We attacked it and succeeded in shooting it down. By that time we were from fifteen to twenty miles in Hunland so we started back at full speed. Mac was just behind and I looked back and saw him following me. However, I got lost several times before I got back and that is the last I ever saw of Mac. I imagine he had motor trouble and had to land or possibly he got a piece of "Archie” in his tank. Anyway “ feel sure that he is safe and we are anxiously awaiting news from a German prison camp.

'Mac has done wonderfully well. Before the scrap, he had shot down a Hun scout in a duel and a Hun two-seater which burst into flames.

'He was the most popular man in the squadron and everyone here is continually bemoaning his loss. He has given every reason to be proud of him and his last flight alone was enough to distinguish him.

'With kindest regards.

In due course, the Germans dropped a message over the British lines informing them of Grider's death but with no details. He was buried by the Germans at Houplines, a small village near Armentieres. 20

19. According to E C Blakeley, the following German pilots were credited with having shot down SE 5as on June 18, 1918: Vizefeldwebel Putz, 5th victory; Leutnant Delling, 3rd victory; Leutnant Degelow, 5th victory; Hauptmann Berthold, 35th and 36th victories, and Leutnant Beaulieu-Marconnay, 7th victory. My research indicates the following as to these pilots:

Vizefeldwebel Johann Putz and Leutnant August Delling were in Royal Bavarian Jagdstaffel 34. Their victories apparently occurred around 11:00 am in the area between Hamelet and Hamel, some ten miles North-west of Cambrai.

Hauptmann Rudolf Berthold was commanding officer of JG2. Another source has these two victories as occurring on June 13, 1918. If they occurred on June 18th, I am unable to establish the time or location.

Leutnant Oliver Freiherr von Beaulieu-Marconnay was in Jasta 15 in JG2. I am unable to establish the time or location of this victory.

Leutnant Carl Degelow was in Jasta 40 when this victory occurred. The encounter was near Courtrai but I am unable to determine the time. Following this victory, Degelow was made commander of Jasta 40.

Based solely upon the above, and assuming that Grider was actually downed by an enemy aircraft rather than by groundfire, etc., it appears that Degelow may have been the victor. Perhaps the readers can furnish additional information on this question.

20. Following the war, the American army moved Grider's body to the Flanders Field Cemetery, near Waereghem, Belgium, where he now rests.

Acknowledgment - My appreciation is extended to E C Blakeley for his help in locating the serial number of Grider's SE5a and for furnishing information on his final flight."

Part 2 to follow.

Graeme

[Graeme]

A follow-up to the earlier article was made by Bruno J Schmäling of Munich in Cross & Cockade Great Britain Journal Volume 11 No 3, 1980:

"Regarding this article, I think I can throw a little more light on to McGavock's last patrol. As mentioned in the article the following German flyers were credited with shooting down SE5as:- a. Lt Karl Degelow, Jasta 7 (not Jasta 40), 09.30 hrs, 1 km West of Vieux Berquin; b. Lt Oliver v Beaulieu-Marconnay, 11.55 hrs, Villers-Bretonneux; c. Hptm Rudolf Berthold, 11.50 hrs and 11.55hrs, Villers Bretonneux; d. Vfw Johann Putz, 11.05 hrs Hamelet-Hamel. The victories b, c and d are far away from Menin even though they are later (12.00 British time).

The area in which Grider seems to have come down is between the 4th and 6th German Armies. Let us look in the Lofl reports of these armies:- 6th Army - no SE5a downed this day. 4th Army - only Lt Degelow's SE5a. Additional to Degelow, Jasta 7 have the following victories: 10.00 hrs, Lt Nebgen, Camel, North of Kemelberg; 0910 hrs, Uffz Mertens, Camel, South Dickebusch Lake; 0950 hrs, Obflm Schönfelder, Camel (this was S W Connolly of 54 Sqn). Lt Degelow's victory place, Vieux-Berquin is 40 km South-West of Menin. Even the time, 09.30 German, 10.30 British time, could be right. So it seems, that the last opponent of Lt McGavock Grider was Lt Degelow. Lt Delling had no victory this day.”

Sifting through this lot and with the benefit of 22 years’ extra research being available:

No 85 Squadron was based at St Omer, having moved there from Petite Synthe on 11 June 1918. Grider and Springs took off at 09:15. Springs’ claim was timed at 10:05 over Menin and Grider was lost subsequent to this combat. German time at this stage was one hour ahead of British time, so to be a match chronologically a claim would need to be timed at about 11:00 or a little later.

August Delling’s SE5 victory was on 17 June 1918, so may be discounted.

Carl Degelow’s claim is quoted as being Vieux-Berquin at 09:30 (08:30 British time). This would not appear to fit either chronologically or geographically. The information in Above The Trenches says he joined Jasta 40 on 16 May 1918 so was with this unit, not Jasta 7.

Johann Putz’s claim is at 11:00 (German time) so fits chronologically. However, the location is way off.

Rudolf Berthold, as Dan-San rightly points out, was commander of Jagdgeschwader Nr 2. In Above The Trenches his two SE5a victories at 10:55 and 10:55 on 18 June 1918 are credited as being over C1123 (Nielsen) and D259 (Fyfe) of No 84 Squadron. Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay’s claim was also in the vicinity of Villers Bretonneux at 10:55 (German time). While close time-wise, no good geographically.

Question - Since none of the claims for SE5s are a particularly good fit, should we consider that one of the less experienced pilots, ie Willi Nebgen and Max Mertens who were credited with Camels, actually brought down Grider's SE5?

Graeme