Mannock's SE5a

[retread]

Any forumites know what the number of Mick Mannock's aircraft on his last flight?

??? ??? Weldboy

[Dan_San_Abbott]

weldboy:

Major Mannock's machine was Vickers built S.E.5a serial number E.1295 with as I understand marked with a "Z", this is the machine he was flying when he was shot down on 18 July 1918.

Sad day for the Irish,

Dan-San

666

[retread]

Thanks Dan San. I was looking at a photo of the flight line of 85 Squadron (captioned June 21, 1918) and thought the aircraft Mannock flew on his last mission may be among them. If so its too far in the background of the photo to be I.D.ed. There is an aircraft in the foreground with a "Z" atop its upper wing as well as its fuselage but the number is C1904. No cigar I'm afraid. Thanks again.
Weldboy

[Gregvan]

Actually, Weldboy, the SE5a C1904 in the famous line-up photos taken on 21 June 1918 was flown by the previous commander of No. 85 Squadron...er...that fellow named BB. Ironically, 21 June was the day after BB left and before Mannock had arrived to take over. C1904 was also flown by Capt. S B Horn and Lt. W H Longton.

As Dan-San says, Mannock was indeed killed in SE5a E1295. He had previously claimed as many as 7 or 8 victories in it (??). According to sysewitnesses of his final flight, this a/c had a red streamer on the tail. Ironically, Inglis was flying E1294 on the fateful day, receiving shared credit for a 2-seater with Mannock.

Greg VanWyngarden

[Graeme]

Mannock achieved as many as 10 victories in E1295 - 2 Fokker DVIIs that collided on 7 July 1918 (not in the RAF Communiques), a Fokker crashed and a Halberstadt captured on 14 July (both in RAF Communique No 15), an Albatros two-seater on 19 July (Hartmann and von Sydow of FA 7), two Fokkers and an Albatros two-seater on 20 July 1918 (only the Albatros in RAF Communique No 16), a Fokker Triplane on 22 July 1918 and his shared victory with Inglis on 26 July 1918 (both in RAF Communique No 17).

E1295 arrived with No 85 Sqn on 20 June 1918 and only Mannock achieved combat successes in it.

Inglis' E1294 had arrived at the squadron on 16 June 1918 and was sent to the Repair Park, 1 Aeroplane Supply Depot on 28 July.

Bishop gained about 13 victories in C1904, Horn achieving five more and Longton 1.

Graeme

[retread]

Seeing as how I have the attention of at least some forumites instead of starting a new thread I will ask a related question under this heading.
It regards the subject of the book "Warbirds" in which Elliot Springs took the liberty of extending the journal of his friend John Grider (both Yanks in the R.F.C. both members of 85 Squadron) by some two months .Grider being KIA in June 1918 and the book extending his (Grider's) diary into August.The final two months being ghost written (pun somewhat intended) by Springs.
My question(s) are this. Does anyone know the actual date of Grider's death and something of the circumstances? The aircraft he was flying ? Are either Springs or Grider or their aircraft visible in the photos of 85 Squadron taken June 21st ?
Thanks,
Weldboy

[Graeme]

Grider was killed in action on 18 June 1918 in SE5a C1883. Five SE5s were claimed that day:

Ltn Carl Degelow, J40
Vfw Johann Putz, J34
Hpt Rudolf Berthold, JGIII (two)
Ltn Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay, J15

but only four were lost:

Lt H J Mulroy (Kia), 56 Sqn, SE5a D6098
2nd Lt R J Fyfe (Kia), 84 Sqn, SE5a D259 (Berthold?)
Lt P Nielsen (Kia), 84 Sqn, SE5a C1923 (von Beaulieu-Marconnay?)
Lt J McG Grider (Kia), 85 Sqn, SE5a C1883

The closest match, chronologically, is Putz's claim at 10:00 (British time) over Hamel; Grider was lost at 10:05 over Menin.

Graeme

[Graeme]

I've had a thumb through my copy of "Airmen of World War 1 - Men of the British and Empire air forces in old photographs" and two photos of No 85 Sqn dated 21 June 1918 appear.

The first is the complete line-up of the squadron with the photographer "looking down" upon the aircraft. C1904 is closest to the camera with (I believe) S B Horn in the cockpit; next is D6851 (Springs) and C1931 (Inglis).

The second photo is of the same line-up but with the mechanics by the aircraft and the pilots in a group in the foreground. Inglis, Callahan and Springs are identified.

I'll see if I can scan either/both of the photos.

Graeme

[Graeme]

Duckman

The statement was made purely for informative purposes and I make no attempt to match up Putz's claim with Grider's loss.

However, while claim/loss times generally match up fairly well, locations are always suspect and I like to get a reasonable match in this respect before going further.

As you rightly say, the locations are way off so even with the times being close there's no way Putz could have brought down Grider.

For the record, the German claims I have listed for SE5s on 18 June 1918 are (German time/British time):

09:30/08:30 Vieux Berquin Ltn Carl Degelow J40 [29 Sqn Lt R G Pierce OK]

11:00/10:00 Hamel Vfw Johann Putz J34 #5

11:50/10:50 Villers-Bretonneux Hpt Rudolf Berthold JGIII #35

11:55/10:55 Villers-Bretonneux Ltn Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay J15 #8

11:55/10:55 Villers Bretonneux Hpt Rudolf Berthold JGIII #36

SE5 losses that day were:

2nd Lt R G Pierce 29 Sqn SE5a C8870 - took off at 07:30 (British Time) and brought down near the lines at map reference Sh31A E.28.a [Degelow ? but thought to be anti-aircraft fire]

09:10 Aveluy Wood Lt H J Mulroy (Kia) 56 Sqn SE5a D6098 - brought down after combat near Suzanne aerodrome

SE Abancourt 2nd Lt R J Fyfe (Kia) 84 Sqn SE5a D259 - left at 09:45 (British time), combat with two EA [Berthold #35?]

NE Abancourt Lt P Nielsen (Kia) 84 Sqn SE5a C1923 - left 09:45 (British time), combat with EA at 12,000 SE Abancourt [von Beaulieu-Marconnay #8 ?]

10:05 Menin Lt J McG Grider (Kia) 85 Sqn SE5a C1883 - left 09:15 (British time), last seen in combat with EA over Menin at 10:50.

Mind you, I've also seen it suggested that Grider was actually brought down at 1:50 pm which complicates matters even further!

Graeme