"...covered with red crosses...."

[ONEALM]

I've seen several combat reports in which Allied aircrew report seeing German aircraft with upper wings "....covered with red crosses...." Has anyone seen photographic evidence of this? Can it be a mis-interpretation of lozenge camo ?

My current painting project mentions such an airplane and I would love to paint this wild scheme - but it begs the question of accuracy of the combat reports.

Anyone have more information on this that might help me get it right ?

Thanks in advance,
Mike

[Dan_San_Abbott]

ONealM:
Mike, on 26 september 1918, two pilots from the 147th Pursuit Squadron engaged Fokker D.VII and one reported, "The leader was all white with what looked like red crosses." The other pilot stated, "-leader was all-white with red crosses." This engagment occured over Milly-devant-Dun.
I have several times on the net suggested that Goering's all white Fok.D.VIIF5125/18 had red crosses rather than the normal black crosses. The discussion turned to ambulance aircraft, completely missing what I had wrote.
The question becomes, where was Jage Nr.1 von Richthofen on 26 September 1918?
Milly-davant-Dun is located 10 kilometers south of Stenay and two klm.north-east of Dun Meuse River, situated on the right wing of the German 5.Armee.
On 24 September 1918, Jage Nr.1, von Richthofen moved to Metz-frescaty Airfield. On 26 September 1918, Jage Nr.1 von Richthofen, "Pursuit region as far as Verdun." Verdun is 29 klm ESE of Milly-devant-Dun and both on the River Meuse.
Fok.D.VIIF5125/18 was accepted on 11 September 1918, which would allow sufficient time for delivery to Goering before he when he returned from leave
on 4 September 1918. so on 26 September 1918, Oblt.Goering led the pilots of Jastas of Jage Nr.1 von Richthofen in his brand new all white Fok.D.VIIF 5125/18 with all the markings in red! It was most likely factory prepared.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[EricGoedkoop]

If you're right, Dan-San, how on earth did Goering get away with doing that?Recognition / national markings was a serious issue in WW1, and the Germans of course were changing specifications almost constantly. I can think of a few other minor variations on the German crosses (Jacobs, for one) but nothing as flagrant as changing them to red. Why would Goering have been allowed to do that?

[rammjaeger]

Dan-San,

red crosses are really hard to believe. At least some logical reasons are not supporting this suggestion, e.g.:

Only 20 "Kriegsflüge" (missions) were reported for the day by the JaGe. The reported air victories against bombers prove that Jasta 4 was in action but can you or anybody here provide a German source reporting about air combat activities of Göring that day?

G. did limit his activities the most of the time to "ground work" and did fly very seldom. At least I have never heard he did lead his men frequently in combat. And just the work in preparation and execution of JaGes move would give him a lot to do - and different to MvR he was not the men to dislike these organisational and bureaucratic tasks.

And why should G. be so stupid and risk his own life so unnecessary.
The use of red crosses would support the Entente propaganda about the misuse of the "RED CROSS" by the Germans. As well the own pilots could believe in an "Englishman" (even the English soccer teams carry the red cross ) and give the own aircraft some "friendly fire". Even worse: What happens if he is forced to land on the wrong side of the lines?

I know a lot of things are not logical in war but without more than these two pilots notes you could only say: "I speculate ..." but you are sounding rather convinced.

VBR
Rammjaeger

BTW Udet wrote in his book "Mein Fliegerleben" Göring came back from a "Sperreflug" this day when Udet arrived at the airfield - but is there any document confirming that?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Rammjaeger:
As I stated there were two pilots from the 147th Pursuit Squadron reported seeing the leader of a flight of Fok.D.VII machines which was painted all white with red crosses over Milly-devant-Dun on 26 September 1918.
You provided the proof that Oblt. Goering did in lead a Sperreflug (Blocking flight). See "Ace of the Iron Cross",page 88. quote, " Goering is flying patrol a standing patrol with his flight when I arrive. He lands,..... The date is estabished by Udet's claim for a De Havilland 9 on the same date.
1. I am not sure that the use of red crosses on aircraft to identify the aircraft as an ambulance was established any international body. If so it would have been a violation of the rules of war.
2. I don't know if Oblt.Goering initiated this white Fok.D.VIIF or Fokker?
3. It appears to have been factory finished.
4. I think the red crosses were to signify Jage.Nr.1 von Richthofen.
5. Red and black are difficult to differenciate with orthochromatic film.
6. The fact is two pilots did see it and reported and reported it.
7. Oblt. Ernst Udet reported that Goering flew that day.
8. Jage Nr.1 von Richthofen flew defensive patrols in the area of the Germ 3. and 5.Armeen apparently led by Oblt. Goering.
It is my opinion that this Fok.D.VII has red crosses instead of the correct black crosses. Every thing fits, date, place and flight and fits with the pilots reports from 147th Pursuit Squadron.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[rammjaeger]

Dan-San,

I accept your statements as an opinion but if you wish to proof your conviction for a rather sceptical audience you should add a lot more of research work.

Until now it is not possible to say “everything fits”!

1. You said I did provide the proof that Göring did lead a blocking flight that day. Yes, I pointed to Udet´s book but sometimes Udet was writing things in error in his book. Therefore I would prefer to see another report or document reporting Görings flight.

2. Even if Göring was flying this day this is not proving a meeting with the US-pilots.
Some questions arise like: Can we match more than the date? Did the US-pilots report time and maybe a more precise location of the combat with the Red Cross-Fokker? As well it would be niece to find a report with more details about Görings flight (if he was flying at all). If you can not find this kind of report then it is (at least) necessary to limit the time frame for the combat. The come back of Udet and the claims of Jasta 4 give some clue (but only if we assume Udets report in his book is correct).

3. An air combat between Göring and the mentioned two US-pilots is still not the final proof for “Red Crosses” on Göring´s Fokker. Why? There were so many wrong reports and nonsense-claims about the colour or insignia of enemy aircraft in WWI on both sides that reports of two pilots are hardly a reliable proof. Remember that one of the pilots was writing “with what looked like red crosses”. That sounds to me like he was questioning the own observation or he did not trust his own words.

I will not deal with other questions here like names and amount of experience of both US-pilots, weather conditions for this day etc.

I think proving “Red Crosses” for Göring´s Fokker means to do a lot more tough research work and final prove can only provide a trustworthy document or mechanic reporting the mentioned colour of crosses.

Good luck for your research!

VBR
Rammjaeger

[Dave Spencer]

The red cross referred to on English football shirts is the Cross of St George, the English flag of several hundred years.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ramsjaeger:
I don't have the time to devote to this, All I was doing was to substantiate wha ONealM had started. There was nothing that I had that stated that there was an engagement, all it was they saw a flight of Fok.D.VII led by an all white Fok.D.VII with red crosses, the other guy said "what looked like red crosses". That's all, no big deal. It was reported. It is very simple, if you belive it, use red crosses on Georing's white Fokker D.VII, if not, use black crosses.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Barrett]

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that ambulance aircraft were never used in WW I (with or without red crosses) but it's unlikely simply because there were so few suitable planes for the purpose. Certainly, service type aircraft coulda been used on occasion to move casualties one or perhaps two at a time, but a/c dedicated to the purpose would be a novelty. And why would they be operating over the lines? Makes no sense.

I hope that Tony F did tart up HG's white D.VII. Modelers rejoice!

[FinnN]

Originally Posted by Barrett

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that ambulance aircraft were never used in WW I (with or without red crosses) but it's unlikely simply because there were so few suitable planes for the purpose. Certainly, service type aircraft coulda been used on occasion to move casualties one or perhaps two at a time, but a/c dedicated to the purpose would be a novelty. And why would they be operating over the lines? Makes no sense.

I hope that Tony F did tart up HG's white D.VII. Modelers rejoice!

The French (and I think Italians) definitely had ambulance aircraft with red cross markings - since the last time this topic came up I've noticed a handful of photos showing them, although presumably they'd be fairly unusual. A red cross on a white background would be instantly recognisable to anyone as something medical. I think this alone would make its use on a combat plane hugely unlikely so, for me, any supporting evidence would have to be really solid - far more so than usual.

The descriptions say in one instance 'looked like' which doesn't sound too definitive to me and 'covered with red crosses' which could be something else if as Mike says it appears in several combat reports, not to mention the possibility they probably spoke to each other about the mission before giving the report and so may have strengthened what might have been only a vague impression.

As in the original discussion on this I remain unconvinced - simply due to the fact that the particulat combination amounts to using Red Cross markings. I'm not suggesting the aircraft was an ambulance plane, just that the red crosses were never there (at least not as national markings).

Have fun
Finn