Fokker DR1

[sagindragin]

hi all,
some of you know me from airwarfareforum.com those that don't you ain't missing much , anyway here is a topic from my site we are looking for answers.

FOKKER 1914-18 IDENTITY PLATES.

By the early 1990’s, I found myself in the middle of an argument over the validity of a Fokker DR1 identity plate, alleged to be that from Richthofen’s triplane??? It was described as a soft brass rectangular stamping having a small rivet hole in each corner, and had a black enamel filling.

Raised lettering quoted…. “MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER”, below which was…”DR”, and on the same line a single raised portion was stamped in slightly undulating form… ‘1 425/17’.

The plate it was claimed had been taken off Richthofen’s machine by Gunner G Ridgeway, of an Australian unit who had been the first man at the crash site, on 22-04-1918. Details about the existence of this plate did not really become general knowledge until the early 1960’s? Subsequently the same design of ‘plate’ has appeared on many a full scale set of drawings and model plans appertaining to the DR1, as being an official and authentic component?

It would also seem at least two replicas of this plate were later made and differed only in the material used, and that the lettering read ….”Dr” and “1 425/17”, the latter stamped in a slightly smaller size, and in a perfectly straight line.

Evidently there are still many controversial matters relative to both the shooting down of the Fokker tri-plane and also of the validity of the identity label, and from time to time queries were received if some light could be thrown on the latter aspect, having carried out much work on the Historic Aircraft Maintenance Group’s Fokker D.VII (ex Nash Collection) machine during its strip down prior to reconstruction?

Although several reports had been made during the 70’s and 80’s, by 1993, I produced a short article on the subject dealing mainly with plates from the Nash D.VII, and from French reports on D.VII’s , and DR.1 plates. I made drawings which gave factual D.VII details, and hypothetical DR.1 plate details. These plates were of plain soft mild steel stamped by a number of punch devices. The plates were then tack welded to the steel tubular fuselage structure. It would seem that if all else in the way of identity were lost, these plates were likely to survive.

Reference was also made to the use of an engine data plate on the starboard side of the cowling, and the possibility of a further small plate on the firewall? These were likely to be of brass and were riveted in position?

Opinions were voiced that the (Australian) plate needed A) First to have the spelling checked, i.e., was it true German?, and B) Find a possible date when the Z.A.K inspection organization would have stamped the plate(s) of a ‘DR 1’ with a factory number of ‘2009’.

The spelling? ‘MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER’ [With a dot over each ‘A’, and two dots over each ‘U’].. was a nothing?? It certainly was not Dutch as that would have read…’MILITAIR VLIETUIG’… but the correct German would read…’MILITAR-FLUGZEUG’.. [with two dots over the ‘A’ only]…the latter can be proven in the German Aircraft Design Manual, where various types of identity plates are given..

Again according to ‘The Dutch Colour Group’ [J.H.N.Greuter], the Military Acceptance date for ‘2009’ was ‘8-01-1918’ [which could have been stamped with other references on a brass plate attached to the firewall?]. That ties in with the G.S (Intelligence), Headquarters, R.A.F., Report on Machine No.2009 which stated the top plane was dated ’13-12-17’, and with that, the probability of that component being mated to the rest of the machine, it may well have been completed, inspected, tested, and received ‘Z.A.K’ stampings near to the end of 1917? Thus a mild steel identity plate could have been stamped ‘425/ 12 17’ at one end and ‘FOK. DR1 2009’ at the other .separated by the ‘Z.A.K. Inspection Marks’? This is based on the D.VII plate form.

At the time (December 1993), I would have hoped that proper examinations would have been made on any existing original ‘DR.1’ and ‘D.VII’ airframes to check out any welded plate detail found on their tubular structure, but subsequent replies were not forthcoming?

However from just this basic information received it would seem that many researchers felt the ‘Australian’ plate was nothing more that a poor forgery? But what do other members know of such ‘plates’? I will present some plate illustrations and other data at a later date.

AEROCAM.


thanks in advance,
john

[Langdon]

I have seen a small number of the plates you mention including that held by the AMW, all are supposedly from 425/17 and as far as I know none have turned up that designate other Dr.I aircraft, I believe them all to be fakes for the reason you have stated above (spelling).

Concerning the plates spot welded to the fuselage frame, there is a lack of Fokker built aircraft, there are no original Triplanes and possibly only one Fokker built D.VII and it has been heavily modified and restored. The Fokker D.VIII at the Caproni museum in Italy does not have this plate welded to the frame.

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

sagindragin:
I concurr with Langton. On the Fokker fuselage were two identification plates,
Fokker Factory plate, 115 long x 47mm wide and the Idflieg plate 150 x 20mm
The Idflieg plate used by Fokker for the DR.I were 150 x 20mm and had on it Militär-Flugzeug Fok. and die stamped DR.I 425/17. This plate was the official plate and required the military data, the Fokker Flugzeugwerke number would have been in appropriate.
The works number 2009 would have been die stamped on the factory plate along with Type, DR.I.
The identification plates would have been riveted to the engine cowling on the right side center line. The Idflieg plate on top and the Fokker Flugzeugwerke plate underneath and touching the bottom of the Idflieg plate.
Every so often the Militaar plate surfaces, with the buyer pleased as punch, until he find out itis phony. From what I understand the real Idflieg plate is in the Scottish United Services Museum in Edinburgh Castle, Edinburgh, Scotland.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I have noticed the Idflieg plate on the F.I 102/17 and 103/17 in the position you mention but on no latter built Fokker aircraft, are you sure they have this plate above the makers plate?

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I am referencing a study done by our mutual friend, Roy Meyers. He said they were there.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Taz]

Dan-San- Langdon turned me on to the excellent article on Fokker data plates in WW-1 Aero Volume 150. Also just found out myself both F.Is had two data plates, but all you experts knew that a long time ago. Did not think the dual plates were on any other Dr.Is though. Have seen no photographic evidence on Dr.Is and it is obvious on 102 an 103/17. Does your friend have a cut-off date when he thinks they stopped using the dual plates?

Taz

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
The Idflieg identification plate was mandatory on all major components, wings fuselage and tails. They are very obvious on Albatros aircraft, not so on Fokker aircraft. I don't know where they were located. Roy has locatated the Idflieg plates on the right side engine cowlings on all Fokker aircraft to in clude all E Types E.I through E.IV, D.I through D.VIII, F.I and DR.I.
If I recall correctly, Roy had an article in WW1 Aero about the Idflieg and Fokker plates.
I can understand how the Idflieg plate could be missed, The Fokker plate abutted the Idflieg plate at the bottom and both plates were almost the same in width. I have the same problem you have Langdon, I don't remember seeing the Idflieg plates. Iam going to have a second look, and see what developes. The two plates were required to be displayed together, with the Idflieg on top. On upper wings, centered in the center-section cut-out. Lower wings, On the leading edge near the interplane struts. On the fuselage on trhe right of the nose. Albatros and OAW had them located as usual. I can't recall seeing them on the leading edge of the lower wings.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

The excellent article in WWI Aero by Roy Meyers has a series of sketches of different Fokker aircraft, he shows the dual plates on the engine cowlings of aircraft up to the D.V, after that he shows only the single factory plate, I believe this should be updated to show the F.I as being the last Fokker built aircraft with the Idflieg plate above the factory plate. I have not noticed an Idflieg plate on any Dr.I, E.V or D.VIII with the exception of a D.VIII being dismantled at McCook field after the war, it had one attached to the lower centre of the ammunition box. Photos of crashed Dr.I aircraft and a factory photo of an E.V show ammo boxes that do not have this plate.

Langdon

[Taz]

Langdon, Dan-San- Have an image of a data plate taken (actually ripped from is more accurate) from an E.V owned by prominent down-under collector. Have you seen it?

Taz

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
would it be possible to post the picture of the E.V plate?
I could open the pictures of Fok.F.I 102/17 and F.I 103/17. all I woiuld get is a blank page.
Blue skies,
Dan