Black Maria

[F=MA]

Howdy folks,

Just finishing up my RC Sopwith Triplane and I need to be triple sure on something.

Raymond Collishaw's plane, "Black Maria" was a twin gun ship, correct?

F=MA

[Pips]

No, he had a standard one gun Tripe. However he did trial a two gun version that was delivered for Squadron use, but found that it's climb and level speed suffered far out of proportion to the gain of two guns.

[Moggie]

From;

"THE FIGHTING TRIPLANES; by Even Hadingham"

Collishaw:" ...Later on I fitted .5 calbre French machine guns on my plane and used tracer ammunition, and I'm sure this was responsible for much of my own success..."

Cool breeze,
Moggie

[Shredward]

Collishaw used 3 Triplanes named "Black Maria". The first was N5490, from 26/4/17 to it's loss on 8/6/17. The second was N5492, which he assumed on the loss of 5490, and used until the arrival from the depot at Dunkirk of the two-gunned N533 on 21/7/17. He claimed two with this machine on 27/7/17, his last patrols with Naval Ten; he was posted to home leave a few days later. With thanks and a tip of the hat to Mike Westrop and his wonderful "A History of No.10 Squadron Royal Naval Air Service", and Collishaw's own "Air Command".
cheers,
shredward

[F=MA]

Originally Posted by Cobby

No, he had a standard one gun Tripe. However he did trial a two gun version that was delivered for Squadron use, but found that it's climb and level speed suffered far out of proportion to the gain of two guns.

This I am sure ain't right. Collishaw reports that there was no reason the 130 hp Tripes could not be twin gun equipped, in his own autobiography. He later tries N533, with twin guns, and says that there is a definite, though slight, loss of performance above 10,000 feet, the extra firepower was well worth having.

I just don't know if this ship was painted Black Flight style or was that only N4592.

F=MA

[Shredward]

All three, that is , N5490, 5492, and 533 were marked in similar fashion, ie black cowling and panels, black wheel covers, rudder, name under the cockpit rim, white "C" aft of the roundel. 533 also had a white "C" on the upper right elevator, not sure about it's predecessors. Perhaps Mike W is lurking...
cheers,
shredward

[Graeme]

F=MA

Collishaw gained victories in three Triplanes:

N5490 "Black Maria" - 14 victories between 28 April and 7 June 1917; this machine then went to No 9 Squadron RNAS where Flight Sub-Lieutenant A T Whealy gasined two victories; then to No 1 Squadron RNAS where Flight Sub-Lieutenant R E MacMillan gained a victory on 19 September before being shot down and taken prisoner.

N5492 "Black Maria" - 19 victories between 15 June and 21 July 1917; Flt Sub-Lieutenant G Roach shot down and killed in this machine on 27 July 1917.

N533 "Black Maria" - 2 victories on 27 July 1917. Fitted with twin Vickers guns. Machine with No 12 Squadron RNAS by mid-September.

So, 33 victories in one-gun Triplanes and 2 in the 2-gun version.

Graeme

[Shredward]

Thanks Graeme,
In reference to N5490, I should have said returned to Depot, rather than describing it as lost. I assumed it was written off in the crash on the 7th June, given Collishaw's description of the wreck. I guess the fitters at the depot could work miracles. Many thanks for filling in the details.
regards,
shredward

[MikeW]

Not much to add to the above:

Collishaw reported that the twin gun N533 suffered a performance hit (of course it did - imagine how much more weight the thing had to carry!) but thought that the benifit of two guns outweighed the loss of climb.

Everyone else thought it was a dog and N533 was rapidly demoted to the Commanding Officer's hack. Whilst Collishaw was flying it he experienced nothing but trouble until his final flight when as Graeme says he made two claims.

When these twin gun machines were introduced, the triplane was starting to loose its performance advantage - anything that reduced that even further was bad news.

Markings as reported above with the exception that it had a black fin, not rudder. The white C on the stabilizer is only known for N533, there are no known photographs of N5490 and N5492 so they remain conjecture based upon the known markings of other Naval 10 machines.

Mike

[F=MA]

Originally Posted by MikeW

Not much to add to the above:

Collishaw reported that the twin gun N533 suffered a performance hit (of course it did - imagine how much more weight the thing had to carry!) but thought that the benifit of two guns outweighed the loss of climb.

Everyone else thought it was a dog and N533 was rapidly demoted to the Commanding Officer's hack. Whilst Collishaw was flying it he experienced nothing but trouble until his final flight when as Graeme says he made two claims.

When these twin gun machines were introduced, the triplane was starting to loose its performance advantage - anything that reduced that even further was bad news.

Markings as reported above with the exception that it had a black fin, not rudder. The white C on the stabilizer is only known for N533, there are no known photographs of N5490 and N5492 so they remain conjecture based upon the known markings of other Naval 10 machines.

Mike

What he specifically states in his autobiography, is that there was a slight loss of performance above 10,000 ft. He does say some others greeted it with mixed feelings. He says, he felt the slight loss of altitude performance was worth the extra firepower. He also says he continued to fly the machine as long as he was at Naval 10, and wished they had been equipped with 2 gun ships long before. This info is on page 126 of "Air Command", which is open in front of me.

Dang, you guys made me look it up. I was hoping for a simple answer early but, I got the answer I needed anyway. Thanks for clearing the paint job question up. I'm building the tripe as N533.

The tripe actually a modified Wattage Camel slow flier. I lengthened th fuse, got a spare wing, cut 2" off the trailing edges, added birch ply struts, etc. and it's really starting to look Tripey as it sits on the building board awaiting final wing mounting and electronics.

Thanks to everyone; you're great, as always,

F=MA