SSW DIV vs. Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe

sfabert,

>If I read your comments correctly, it appears
>that you would discount disparities in pilot
>skill and numbers as an explanation for the
>comparatively one sided results on November 4.

In the morning patrol, the German AAA was the difference, IMO they have the claim on Goodson and the best claim on Rhodes.

In the afternoon patrol, if we take the Australian DES claims vs German anschluss claims then it is close to a wash, with Bolle and King the dominant aces of the respective squadrons scoring 2 and 1(+1 OOC). And the lesser aces Bormann and Jones both scoring 1.

If the Australian claims are bogus in historical hindsight then Bolle is pretty much the difference really. I dont think numbers, aircraft or advantage played any part in the second dogfight. Bolle and Bormann didnt knock down pilots new to the front either, Baker was a 12 victory ace, Palliser a 7 victory ace and Symons had scored 4 victories in the previous month.

Getting bested by Bolle is no disgrace, he was one of the best fighter pilots and combat leaders of the war. Given 4 Sqn AFC's result against other Jasta's on their front, Jasta Boelcke were their only equals or better on that front in November.




cam

Well put. I agree that Karl Bolle would have had the edge even if his airplane was no better than his opponent's.

The 4 November actions. *There are two separate actions here. *Cato's Claim is in the morning about 09:00. *The second fight took place some time just after noon after an 80 Wing raid on Chapelle-a-Wattines.

The 28 October actions. *This patrol was in the air from 14:40 til 16:40. *The action may have taken place around 14:55.

The 29 Oct actions may have occurred at about 16:10

The 30 October Action. This is about 14:55.

All the OOCs listed were credited.

One thing I'd really like to see is Bolle's side of the story on the 4 Nov actions. *Did he ever write about his experiences or did anyone ever write a biography of him?

P.S. This is the sort of thread I signed up for. It's better than some of the other stuff around that passes for debate or discussion.

I'd have to go with the SSW here, it's got pretty much anything on the snipe(I suspect it could even outdive it, provided the snipe didn't want to stress out the planes)...provided of course both peelots are clones

It was a revolutionary and new tech a/c.

I agree the Snipe VS DVII would be a VERY close matchup.

One thing I'd really like to see is Bolle's side of the story on the 4 Nov actions. *Did he ever write about his experiences or did anyone ever write a biography of him?

P.S. This is the sort of thread I signed up for. *It's better than some of the other stuff around that passes for debate or discussion. *

I have not seen anything in print that would suggest that there are any personal accounts of Karl Bolle's war experiences floating around. It would stand to reason that his personal papers survived the war, just as he did. Certainly there are quite a few photos around that look like they may have come from his scrapbook, or that of someone who served alongside him for much of his career. Maybe the papers are out there somewhere, and just have not been translated.

I believe I once read a caption on a photo of Bolle's Fokker DVII that indicated it wound up in the hands of the Australians when it was surrendered at war's end. I believe somebody had erroneously placarded the plane with a message that it had accounted for forty kills, apparently mistaking Bolle's personal score for the plane's total. I will look for it and post it if I can locate it. That would make interesting reading also, if they realized what they had in their hands.

I agree that there are other threads that are not half as informative as this one. Reasonable people with divergent views can discuss serious subjects intelligently on this forum, if they let themselves remain open to new information. And the amount of new information that sometimes appears is a pleasant surprise.

I found the photo of Bolle's DVIIF post surrender, and it appears I was mistaken. The caption recites that it was in the hands of personnel from 85 Squadron and 54 Squadron in December, at Nivelles, rather than with any Australian unit.

On 10/28 none of the German combat reports I know of show a fight at the time specified, but Jasta 27 had a scrap that resulted in 4 claims, one Bristol and three unspecified types, hour unstated. No casualties are admitted for Jasta 27 that date. There are a number of casualties for other German units, but none that would obviously match up with 4 AFC from 14:40 to 16:40.

On 10/29 Oblt Dahlmann of JGIII claimed a Camel at 1605 West of Valenciennes, no casualties admitted. Jasta 33 made two claims, type unspecified, no casualties admitted; and Jasta 74 claimed 4 unspecified, no casualties admitted, "Near Vilosnes". Admitted German losses for the date are one KIA from Jasta 6 at Montfaucon and one KIA from Jasta 32 at Erquelinnes.

On 10/30 Jasta 23 lost one KIA location unstated; Jastas 32, 33, 37, 43 and 46 had claims for unspecified types, no time or place stated.

The Henshaw book recites that the 4 AFC fights on October 28 included a victory claim by Capt King in combat 13:15-13:20 E of Buissenal; a claim by Capt Baker at noon SE of Tournai; and another Baker fight with Fokkers between 14:55 and 15:00.

For October 29 Henshaw recites a loss at 16:10 NE of Tournai, Lt Sims KIA - could this be Dahlmann's claim of a Camel, or is the location too far away?

For October 30 Henshaw recites a Snipe lost at 14:55 over Leuze to Fokkers, 2Lt Kilsby POW. He lists no fewer than 5 Sopwith Dolphins of 19 Squadron lost that day, some to Jasta 27.

So we see a typical late October picture, no clear matchups of each side's reported combats, except for the likely conclusion that Jasta 27 had a big fight with 19 Squadron on the 30th.

[MikeW]

I see that Trevor Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield is being quoted - please note that it is not necessarily definitive.

The last time I was in contact with Trevor, he had the following to say "I have found many small additions and filled in many gaps the last 6 years ...". I believe he is hoping to publish an update at some time, or possibly a reissue of the book.


Mike

I see that Trevor Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield is being quoted - please note that it is not necessarily definitive.

I had noticed that. *It's a wonderful tome but as with all research only as good as the material available at the time it was written.

And the scope of the book it's BIG.

Henshaw's book has lots of material in it, and I certainly don't assume that there is not a lot more out there. I try to assume only that there is some documentation for his entries, rather than inferring that something did not happen if he has no reference to it. I try to take the same attitude toward all of the archival summaries. First an event happens, then a record of it gets created, usually by a clerk remote from the action. The nonexistence of a record does not extinguish the event.