SSW DIV vs. Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe

There has been much discussion about the match-up between the Sopwith Triplane vs. Fokker Dr1. I was curious what everyone felt about the outcome of a fight between a SSW DIV and a Sopwith Snipe. They are both considered the ultimate in rotary engine design. The Snipe was somewhat faster in level flight, and from what I could determine, more maneuverable. But the SSW had a better climb and ceiling, giving it an edge in hit and zoom attacks. I do not know much about the handling of the two, however. Please give me your thoughts.

Also, did these two aircraft ever meet in combat?

[Craig]

I've heard the Snipe thrashed soundly on this Forum. Many say that it was no better than the Camel (Bentley version?) that it was meant to replace.
But, my general understanding, gleaned from years of admittedly casual study of this subject, was that it was nearly equal to the Fokker D.VII, but no better. (The Barker fight should be discounted out-of-hand as proof that the Snipe was superior to the D.VII. Barker could've done as well in a Camel, I say.)
The SSW D.IV, on the other hand, was an extremely maneuverable, rocket-climbing little monster. Slightly slower than the Snipe, yes, bit 3 mph? Big deal. Look how much slower the Mercedes-engined Fokker D.VII was than the SPAD 13 or SE5a, and it was considered, by most, superior to either of those. And, perhaps more relevant, the SSW D.IV was considered superior to the D.VIIf. Had there been more of them, and had they not been so difficult to land, we'd have alot more stories, to be sure. My money's on the D.IV.
BTW, SSW had a parasol version ready to take over the assembly lines, with a top speed was 137 mph. No idea if it was as simian in its twisting as its forebear.

Everyone who flew the DIV in combat certainly was pleased with it. And the DVIIF was probably better than the Snipe, if 5 victories over them in one day by Karl Bolle and Jasta B on November 4 prove anything.

I agree that it is unlikely that the Snipe performed noticeably better in a turning fight than the Camel with the same engine.

I am not aware of any reports of actual meetings between the Snipe and the DIV. But there were Snipe losses reported before the Germans knew what it was, so who knows?

Just a couple of corrections for the record.

4AFC lost 5 Snipes on 4 Nov 1918. 2 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.

The 2 pilots lost in the morning (Goodson and Rhodes) were both taken POW and I have copies of both of their statements made after they were repatriated.

If you want to read them Cam has them on his old site http://www.australianflyingcorps.org...n_4afc_pow.htm

Anyway the point is Rhodes' engine was damaged by flak then he was bounced by a Fokker (Bolle). and shot down.

Goodson was purely a victim of excellent AA Artillery. He was 1st hit at 13,000ft then twice more as he spun uncontrollably down.

There is no doubt however the three pilots shot down in the afternoon (Captain Baker, Lt Palliser and Lt Symons) were victims of Bolle (2) and Borman (Is that right? - I'm working from memory).

In the 4 or so weeks prior to this action 4AFC lost 2 Snipes in air to air combat. On the other side of the balance sheet 4AFC claimed 20 Fokker D.VIIs Destroyed (7 ‘in flames’ 13 ‘crashed’) 1 L.V.G. (‘crashed’), 1 Balloon ‘in flames’. They also claimed 15 Fokker D.VIIs Out of Control.

Whatever you think about OOC, the list of destroyed claims is impressive.

As to why they were so impressive I've thought long and hard on this matter. I believe the Snipe WAS significantly better than the Camel as born out by every first hand account written by Australian pilots who flew both. I believe it was in the area of climb rate where it was most significantly better.

Whether it was outstandingly better is another question altogether. (I don't believe so.)

I suspect the first few actions where German pilots met Snipes they may have mistaken them for Camels and tried to fight them the same way (big mistake - the Camel couldn't climb like a Snipe).

Whatever the story the Snipe was really an interim fighter waiting for something better (the Dragon and the Buzzard) to come along. I think if more squadrons had been equipped with Snipes in 1919 the story would have been similar to that of the Camels in 1918. They would have held their own but not had any significant advantage over the Germans.

Anyway the point is Rhodes' engine was damaged by flak then he was bounced by a Fokker (Bolle). and shot down.

Goodson was purely a victim of excellent AA Artillery. He was 1st hit at 13,000ft then twice more as he spun uncontrollably down.

Many fighter pilots report being downed by flak when they really were shot down by a fighter that they didn't see. I have never heard of anyone being hit three times by flak in one flight, especially while maneuvering to avoid enemy fighters. Must have been a very slow spin over a balloon site to be hit three times in a row by flak.

The Sky Their Battlefield lists Snipe losses for 4AFC on October 29 and 30, resulting in the death of Lt. Sims and capture of 2Lt. Kilsby. The summary for the November 4 losses states that the two men lost in the morning were seen in combat with 7 Fokkers at 10:15 AM near Tournai. It does note the contention that flak claimed Lt Goodson, but there is no reference to flak causing Lt. Rhodes to fall.

Bolle claimed four but received official credit for only two of the five Snipes lost by 4 AFC on November 4, and the fifth was claimed by Leutnant Ernst Bormann but apparently not officially confirmed. Apparently no German pilot was given formal credit for the other two, so the flak batteries may have won the argument based on the statements of the Australian pilots and the wreckage. Then again the end of the war may have prevented there from being any decision on the contested claims. 43 Squadron lost another Snipe that same day, but the cause is not clearly known, perhaps engine failure.

I will leave the victory claims of the Snipe pilots to others, who are more forceful in their comments on apparent overclaiming by Allied pilots in the later stages of the war.

sfabert,

>Many fighter pilots report being downed by flak
>when they really were shot down by a fighter
>that they didn't see.



>I have never heard of anyone being hit three
>times by flak in one flight, especially while
>maneuvering to avoid enemy fighters.

Goodson was patrolling when he was hit, he wasnt in a dogfight,

"I was one of a patrol of four machines that elft the aerodrome at Ennetieres at 9 am on the 4th of November 1918, led by 2/Lieut Cato, to do a line patrol. Whilst patrolling the line we were being shelled by anti-aircraft guns from the German artillery. When at 13,000 feet I was hit in my lateral controls and bottom of control lever. The machine immediately went into a left hand spin from which it did not recover. When at about 3,000 feet, I received two more direct hits under the right wing. I spun into the canal between two bridges in the centre of Tournai. One wing of the machine was carried away by the bridge and the machine became a total wreck on striking the water.

I was pulled out of the canal by some German soldiers. I was wounded slightly by a piece of shell in the head and badly shaked by the fall of the machine. "

Gordon published that on,

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii...pow_goodson.htm

By any shake of the leg Goodson was a lucky lad to survive that fall, his Snipe must have fallen like a leaf.

>I will leave the victory claims of the Snipe pilots
>to others, who are more forceful in their comments
>on apparent overclaiming by Allied pilots in the
>later stages of the war.

lol so Bolle gets the benefit of the doubt with a pilot who claimed he was hit by AAA by his own words in 1919 on a repatriation report. Yet 4 Sqn AFC which has an excellent victory loss ratio with Snipes is not given any benefit of the doubt? Rhodes repatriation report is a primary source, we will need Bolle's or the AAA report to compare. I would say Lt Rhodes has the benefit of the doubt at this stage.

4 Sqn AFC has gone under an unusual amount of scrutiny in comparison to the other RFC and RAF units, probably only with the exception of 56 Sqn, mainly because it was one of a small contingent of Australian Flying Corps squadrons and of historical importance and interest to Australian aviation enthusiests. Because of their usage and achievements in Snipes they have undergone further scrutiny in that area as well. Most of the modern knowledge of 4 Sqn AFC is pretty good in comparison to the other RFC/RAF squadrons.


cam

Cam:

Good of you to post the original material. I wish I knew where to find similar materials for the flak crew and the German pilots. Do you know of any reports from the AFC pilots who were not shot down? I assume that the Trevor Henshaw book relies on after action reports from those who made it back. It recites that Rhodes was in a fight with 7 Fokkers at the same time that Goodson went down. Goodson apparently never saw these Fokkers, since he makes no reference to them in the material you have supplied. Hence my comment about the possiblity that he simply didn't see them, and therefore assumed that any damage to his airplane was being done by flak.

I can't say whether Goodson's was one of the planes that Bolle claimed. Six Snipes from 2 squadrons went down that day and only five were claimed altogether by German pilots. It certainly appears that Bolle was never credited with a victory for the downing of Goodson, if he did claim him, so he receives no benefit of any doubt. I express no opinion on any claims made by 4 AFC pilots, since I have not researched them. Do you have any dates for their claims? If so I will look into the matter. Jasta B lost one pilot later that afternoon in a fight with Bristols, but otherwise I don't know of any victories to offset the loss of these Snipes.

There are various explanations for one sided results like the November 4 combats. The aircraft may have had an advantage, or the pilot quality may have been noticeably better on one side. In this instance either or both factors may have been at work. Karl Bolle was a very experienced pilot, and Jasta B was a talented unit whose pilots knew how to cooperate. I assume that the 4AFC pilots only had a couple of weeks of experience in Snipes. And of course numbers make a difference. I assume that the 4 AFC contingents were fighting at a numerical disadvantage in both incidents, if the numbers quoted in Henshaw are accurate.

sfabert,

>Do you know of any reports from the AFC pilots
>who were not shot down?

They should be part of the squadron records, Gordon is our local 4 Sqn AFC and Sopwith Snipe expert. Maybe Gordon has the good earth.

>Hence my comment about the possiblity that he
>simply didn't see them, and therefore assumed that
>any damage to his airplane was being done by flak.

Rhodes's repatriation report is pretty much a one liner unlike Goodsons. Wilmott though was hit by AAA and then attacked, this is his German Interrogation Report,

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii...pow_wilmott.htm

and Arthur Cobby's view of the incident,

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii...ow_wilmott2.htm

Hannes found the interrogation report for Wilmott, I can only assume there is one for Rhodes too. Though I would expect Rhodes to lie in an interrogation report rather than an Australian Imperial Force repatriation report. The repatriation reports were taken after the war, so any chinks in a lie would have been found out in a POW camp I would suspect. Besides if Goodson was hit three times, twice while going down, it suggests the German AAA crews knew thier jobs.

>Do you have any dates for their claims? If so I will
>look into the matter.

Hopefully Gordon will publish a book soon on 4 Sqn AFC and the Snipe in Australian service ;) I can dig them up for you if you want them.

>Jasta B was a talented unit whose pilots knew
>how to cooperate. I assume that the 4AFC
>pilots only had a couple of weeks of experience
>in Snipes.

4 Sqn AFC was about the hottest thing in the British and Commonwealth forces at the time. Supposedly this is why they were one of the first units to get the Snipe. I dont know if that is true, or unit pride speaking. Strange wrote of 2 and 4 Sqn,

"In individual squadron fighting these Australians had no equals in their best days, and more than once they raised the record for numbers of enemy aircraft destroyed in one day by any squadron."

I assume he meant 4 Sqn as the 'Records and Statistics" mentions October as,

"the monthly summary of work presents three outstanding features. "The changing of the Squadron from "Camels" to "Snipes", "A record number of enemy machines destroyed" and "Muchly increased activity by enemy aircraft".....during the remaining five days of the month, the pilots established a squadron record for France by destroying 30 enemy machines, bringing the total for the month up to 45."

Jasta Boelcke at the time was one of the most effective German Jasta's on the front. I think it was pretty much the two current best fighter squadrons on that front meeting each other.

>And of course numbers make a difference. I
>assume that the 4 AFC contingents were fighting
>at a numerical disadvantage in both incidents, if
>the numbers quoted in Henshaw are accurate.

The first engagement was four Snipes against seven Fokkers, though there were four SE5a's as well that were involved. The Australians were Cato, Packer, Rhodes and Goodson. None of those pilots were aces unlike the second patrol.

The second was 13 Snipes vs 15 Fokkers. The Australian pilots were King, Symons, Jones, Baker, Ryrie, Palliser, McClaughry, Richards, Wilkinson, James, Lamlough, Cottam and Trescowthick. There are some very experienced and effective pilots in that group. Of those Baker, Palliser and Symons were killed. King claimed a DES and an OOC, Jones a DES(F) and Wilkinson an OOC.

The Australians were escorting DH9's after a raid and noticed there were Fokkers following them. Once the Australians had escorted the DH9's over the line they turned back and climbed to meet the Fokkers.


cam

These claims come out of the 4AFC War Diary at the Australian War Memorial. *I have sighted all the CITARs for these but I can't find them at the moment. *

8Oct18 * * * * * * * * * * * *
Maj W A McClaughry (E8058) D.VII(OOC) *Lille - Pont a Vendin

9Oct18
2/Lt T H Barkell (E8052) Balloon(D) W of Douai

26Oct18
2/Lt T H Barkell (E8052?) D.VII (D- 'in flames') E of Tournai * * * * *
2/Lt T H Barkell (E8052?) D.VII(OOC) E of Tournai
Lt T C R Baker (E8069) D.VII(OOC) *E of Tournai
2/Lt E J Richards (E8082) D.VII(OOC) E of Tournai
Lt H W Ross (E8073) D.VII(OOC) *E of Tournai

27 Oct 1918
Lt T C R Baker (E8052) D.VII(D 'crashed') SE of Tournai * * * *

28 Oct 1918
Maj W A McClaughry * E8096 *D.VII(D-'crashed') Ath
Lt A J Palliser (E8064) D.VII(D 'crashed') Ath
Lt A J Palliser (E8064) D.VII(D 'crashed') Ath
Lt T C R Baker (E8092) D.VII(D 'crashed') Ath
Lt T C R Baker (E8092) D.VII(OOC) Ath
Capt R King (E8050) D.VII(OOC) Ath
Lt H W Ross (E8075) D.VII(OOC) Mourcourt

29Oct18
Lt A J Palliser (E8064) D.VII(D 'in flames') NE of Tournai
Lt A J Palliser (E8064) D.VII (D 'crashed') NE of Tournai * * * *
Lt A J Palliser (E8064) D.VII(OOC) NE of Tournai
Lt G Jones (E8052) D.VII (D 'in flames') NE of Tournai
Lt G Jones (E8052) D.VII(D 'crashed') NE of Tournai
Lt P J Sims (E8070) D.VII(D 'in flames'*) NE of Tournai
Lt T C R Baker (E8082) *D.VII (D 'crashed') NE of Tournai * * * *
2/Lt V H Thornton (E8069) D.VII(D) NE of Tournai
Lt O Lamplough (E8121) D.VII(D 'crashed') NE of Tournai
Lt H W Ross (E8094) D.VII(D 'crashed') NE of Tournai
Capt R King (E8050) L.V.G.(D 'crashed') NE of Tournai
*Sims subsequently shot down and killed in this action.

30Oct18
2/Lt H A Wilkinson (E8072) D.VII(D) Leuze - Ath
Capt R King (E8050) 2xD.VII(Dx2 'crashed'**) Leuze - Ath * * * * *
Capt R King (E8050) D.VII(OOC) *Leuze - Ath
Lt N C Trescowthick (E8064) D.VII(D 'crashed') Leuze - Ath * * * * *
Lt T C R Baker(E8085) D.VII(OOC) *Leuze - Ath
** King attacked a D.VII which, while manouvering, fell on another D.VII below it. Both aircraft destroyed.

4Nov18
Lt E A Cato (E8074) D.VII(OOC) NE of Tournai
Capt R King (E8050) D.VII(D 'in flames') Buissenal - Leuze
Capt R King (E8050) D.VII(OOC) Buissenal - Leuze * *
Lt G Jones (E8052) D.VII(D 'in flames') Buissenal - Leuze
Lt H A Wilkinson (E8088) D.VII(OOC) Buissenal - Leuze

I must admit to a piece of heresy at this point. (And I'll probably be burned at the stake for admitting it).....I have a huge problem with German records.

I admit that all sides over-claimed. British claims by the nature of the fighting have to be more questionable and I also have a big problem with OOC, *BUT, just because the records we have access to don't add up to British claims doesn't mean they didn't get the aircraft. *By concensus it appears German records are drastically thin on the ground.

Cam:

Your references are great stuff, I had no idea there was so much detail available for these events. I generally prefer reports that are made on the same day as the fight to the results of a few months of rumination, but I agree that POW interviews are likely to be wholly unreliable unless they admit something very embarrassing to the captured pilot.

If I read your comments correctly, it appears that you would discount disparities in pilot skill and numbers as an explanation for the comparatively one sided results on November 4. May we then infer that they are some basis for concluding that the BMW powered DVIIs flown by Jasta B were superior aircarft, with some sort of tactical edge over the Snipe? Or do you feel that the results really were not one sided at all, in light of the five claims made by 4 AFC pilots?

Gordon:

I agree that existing German casualty reports prove very little in late October and November of 1918. Once German pilots began to actually use their parachutes, even claims of flamers cannot be disproven by the absence of a casualty record. In some instance there are times and places mentioned in German reports which allow us to match up units, and the existence of a casualty record for a given unit and date at least shows that those particular records are not among the lost.

I note that there are apparently five Australian claims from the afternoon fight on November four, and Jasta B admits to just one loss that day, a fatality in a fight with Bristols at about 1430, more than an hour after the second encounter with 4 AFC. So if there were any German losses to offset the three Snipes lost in the afternoon, they were not fatalities. Looks like King received credit for two and Jones for one, which would nominally make the afternoon fight a draw, but for the fact that the allied pilots were killed while the Germans apparently were not. Any idea whether credit was given to Cato and Wilkinson for their November 4 claims?

Any idea who may have been involved in the big fights on October 28, 29, and 30? Nothing obvious jumps out at me from the German lists. Time of day for these fights might help.