A Fokker by Any Other Color, or . . .

G’day, all—

I know it is said that comparisons are odious, yet in the current context, photographs that permit directly comparing the appearance of Eindeckers with other aircraft under condistions of illumination and exposure that as as nearly alike as possible seems particularly useful. *Despite the poor qualiy of the following stereo image, it nonetheless permits comparing the Nieuport in the background—probably in CDL—against Fokker (the unarmed 1915 recon monoplan, I believe). *



Here’s another odious comparison. *The “1915 Biplan” (l’Aerophile), whose fuselage appears nearly identical to that of the monoplanes, is clearly finished in a dark dope or paint. *Might not this tell us something about Fokker’s early predilection for experimentation with camouflage?



Finally, Fonck with his SPAD may be usefully compared with the Fokker being examined by French troops, non? *I know even less about the development of French camo colors than I do about Fokkers, but the tonalities *behind the French ace should help us zero in on possibilites for the German machine, oui?



Regards,
Stefen

[FinnN]

I haven't had a chance yet to dig out the thread/postcard, but you should remember that unbleached linen can vary a lot in tone and colour depending on how it has been processed.

This is a long shot but I've remembered where some people here might have seen unbleached linen in a modern context. If you've had an old jacket or coat that's fallen apart and is either old enough or expensive enough (!) you might have seen the lining is this strong, but slightly coarse grey material. That's unbleached linen. They still produce it in Northern Ireland for just that purpose (as well as the usual bleached stuff). Really those Fokker pictures look exactly right for that type of unbleached linen.

Have fun
Finn

Good afternoon, Finn--

I appreciate your offering a counter hypothesis. *However, the utility of the factory photograph is that it shows that the raw fabric being used by Fokker--whether unbleached, natural, Irish or Belgian, gray or buff--does not look like the finished thing. *That's the problem. *What is the finish coat that makes Fokker monoplanes darker--and in many, many cases much darker--than their CDL contemporaries? *Indeed, why do they rather look more like their camouflaged brothers?



The solution that I find credible at this point is that they have an opaque finish coat--beige by the witness of the l'Aerophile report, a dark beige by the evidence of the photographs, or some may have been finished in the other, darker, camouflage colors available.

In amicable disagreement,
Stefen

[Dan_San_Abbott]

StefenK:
Fok. D.V 2710/16 is camouflaged in dark green and rust brown.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[AchimEngels]

Dan-San,

just out of curiousity...what is the source that makes you say "dark green" and "rust brown"?

Achim

Good afternoon, gentlemen,

DSA: Let me second Achim's question, and add one of my own: *What accounts for the very distinct tonal break between two colors that otherwise "should"--and often do--both appear quite dark in period photographs? *[May I assume that you would identity the darker tone in the D.V photo as the "rust-brown" and the lighter as the green?]

Best,
Stefen

PS. *I might as well also pose the question to you: Why does Fok. E.I 56 (above) appear as dark if not darker than the "green" camo of the D.V and almost as dark--if not as dark--as that of the "rust-brown"?

Could this be part of an answer ?

The first picture shows the apparent change of color after application of clear dope (right side) on unbleached linen.



The second one shows four distinct unbleached linen samples.

I will not go on type of film used or light direction ... to tell the original colour of a particular aircraft.
This has already been discussed .
But has you can see, unbleached linen does not mean a thing, and providing F.S. Methuen, or whatever references without having an original sample and taking aging into account is, at least, hazardous



Regards

Bonjour, Slot-

A very interesting and, I think, helpful submission to this discussion. *As I later hope to show, I believe, that it serves the cause of showing that clear-doped unbleached linen (CDUL) does not explain the darker renditions of a great number of Fokker Eindeckers. *Additionally, even if we accept that some of lighter renditions in some photographs do represent the sort of fabric presented in the upper panel, then the conventional hues that have been chosen to depict these monoplanes in the great majority of profiles I have seen, leaves something to be desired.

I would be interested in knowing a few things, though, about the samples and their photography. *The upper pair, including the undoped panel, are notably darker and browner than the suite of panels below. *Did these particular batches of fabric vary as significantly as they appear to? *What were the conditions of photography for the various panels shown: same session, same film, same lighting?

Finally, I agree entirely, as many of my posts have argued, that overly precise color identifications cannot be made on the basis of black-and-white photographs alone.

Cordialement de New York,
Stefen

Bonjour StefenK

The rendering of the picture is not the best I must say!
The difference is more obvious than that.
So if you are interested I can send you samples of undoped linen
Drop me a mail !!

Regards

[RLWP]

Is it possible that the two items that this debate hinges around are not what we think? i.e. is the linen linen, and is clear dope clear or dope? This is Germany at war. What was the source of its raw materials? Home grown or import? Is the translation of "linen" the same as we understand it? Would some kind of ersatz dope have been "clear" and colourless as well?

This is only curiosity but if we don't start with the same understanding of "clear", "dope" and "linen" then confusion could follow.

Richard

"what a dope" they all say.