German Aircraft Development

Welcome all Forumites!

The development of aircraft during WWI never ceases to amaze me, when you think of designs like the Fokker EIII at the early stages of the conflict, through to planes such as the Fokker DVIII Flying Razor and the all-metal Junkers DI. I often wonder what Allied pilots thought when they came up against these latter types.

Can you imagine the outcome of the war if these planes came into service earlier and with experienced crews to fly them? *Considering the First World War was nearly 90 years ago, these planes would have been thought of as ultra-modern.

Best Wishes, kenderoz. *;D

[Dan_San_Abbott]

kenderoz;
The developement was amazing when you consider it was only 11 years after the Wright Brother's Flight at Kittyhawk on 17 December 1903. Consider that Junkers J.1, "Tin Donkey" was built in built in 1915, a cantilever monoplane made of sheet steel, all metal! It was test flown on 12 December 1915, five days short of the twelfth annivesary of the Wright Brother's Flight! unfortunately for Germany, Prof. Junkers was a tinker, and not a production expert.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Volker_Nemsch]

Hello!

First have a look here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aircraft/statistics.html

The production numbers in Germany never were high enough to compete with the Allied forces. In several threads it was described that:

1.)
a certain percentage of some new German aircraft (10%?) were delivered without engine, because the authorities expected that there were some left on frontline airfields to be used in new machines. The supply of spare parts was a huge problem in Germany.

2.)
there was a lack of aircraft fuel from mid 1917 until EOW and the synthetic castor oils were not sufficient in quality.

3.)
the Allied aircraft production and all kind of recources (rare metals, oil, rubber, machines necessary for the production of aircraft, skilled workers, etc.) were much higher than it was ever possible for the German side.

4.)
Germany had to produce the majority of the weapons because Austria-Hungary, Turkey and Bulgaria had no or not enough own "military industry". Additionally in 1918 the economic power of the United States overshadowed all German possibilities.

Surely there are more reasons ....

The situation was similar to WW2 when Germany introduced the first rockets and jet-aircraft without no effect.

I´m sure that the allied aircraft producers would have copied German designs or they would have invented something better in the case of a German air superiority within some months. Even the most modern aircraft is of little use if there is only fuel for one flight per day while the "others" have ten or more (not so modern) aircraft with fuel for four or more flights per day and all the needed equipment.



Just an idea ...

BTW, the allied side had interesting and revolutionary aircraft, too.

-- Bristol M.1c monoplane
-- Sopwith Triplane
-- Bristol Fighter
-- Caudron R.11
-- de Havilland DH. 9a
-- Morane Bullet

and many more

[Rbailey]

Modern though they may have looked, I don't believe the J-D1 or the F-DVIII showed more than incremental improvement in performance over older looking designs; the contemporary allied aircrft would have been competitive.

Sorry Rbailey, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with your comment. For example, the Fokker DVIII Flying Razor, in my opinion, was a far-superior plane to any British or French type and had it arrived at the Front earlier, would have been a serious blow to the Allied Forces.

The Allied Forces had nowhere near such a modern-looking plane with as many innovative ideas as the Flying Razor encompassed.

Best Wishes, kenderoz. *

[Rbailey]

Kenderoz - On what basis of performance do you make that statement? The DVIII was slower than the year-old SE5a, for example, and while it may have been a very manueverable and generally excellent aircraft, I can't see anything to indicate that it would have outclassed the opposition to a degree that you seem to think it would. The innovative airframes were not matched by comparable engine developments.

[Volker_Nemsch]

Hello kenderoz!

Altough the Fokker D. VIII was a brilliant aircraft there would have been very serious problems in summer 1919:

Germany had to produce synthetic castor oils and the quality was so bad that there frequently occured engine problems on rotary engines in the summers of 1917 and 1918. This would have resulted in the same or even worse engine failures in the summer 1919 because the reserve supply of "original" castor oil (to be mixed to a certain extend with the synthetic oil) was was getting lower day by day.

As far as I know Richthofen once wrote a report with a complaint concerning the oil quality and the following conclusion that stationary engines should be prefered in new aircraft developments.

Unfortunately a brilliant machine is of little use without high quality fuel or oils needed for flying and fighting.

[RLWP]

Kenderoz,
don't forget that the Fokker E1 wasn't the start either. Those early "Taubes" with their swept back bird like wings don't even look like they belong in the same war!

Richard

Welcome once again, gang!

I have been asked, on what basis of performance did I make my statement?

Well, guys, here's my statement! Speed is irrelevant: if you're doing 120 miles per hour and your opponent is matching your speed, there's no difference in performance. Where the 'edge' comes in is manouverability: being able to turn tighter than your opponent, and have superior climb and dive qualities. At the end of the day, it all depends on who's at the stick!

Occasionally we have to agree to differ. I for one would trade in my Albatros DVa for a Fokker DVIII!

Best Wishes, kenderoz. *;D

Ken,

>Speed is irrelevant:

Dont know if the Zero pilots or BE pilots would agree with you.

>if you're doing 120 miles per hour and your opponent is matching
>your speed, there's no difference in performance. Where the
>'edge' comes in is manouverability: being able to turn tighter
>than your opponent, and have superior climb and dive qualities.

Except DVIII's were probably putzing around at near DrI and Camel speeds of 90-95 mph. A Squadron, Escadrille or Aero of SE5a's or Spads could not only close with them at 120+ mph, but use the closing time to manouvre to advantage. At that rate the SE5a's and Spads could close 10 to 15 miles in 30 minutes. A pronounced advantage.

Once in position, the SE5a's or Spads could dive through the DVIII formation at 180 mph and come out the other side. Rotaries tend to perform less efficiently as altitude increases, so I doubt they would be able to get above the SE5a's, Spads and DVII's with any confidence.




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