Why the RE8?

[MikeW]

I have just been reading a report of an offensive patrol carried out by Nick Carter's A Flight of Naval 10 on the 12 July 1917. The four triplanes were in a scrap with four Albatros scouts and two 2-seaters, when two passing RE8s decided to join in. To Carter's astonishment, one of the RE8's proceeded to shoot down an Albatros scout. Carter saw the crash and was able to confirm the RE8 victory.

Neat trick eh?


Mike

[PeterL]

Mike W; "..one of the RE8's proceeded to shoot down an
Albatros scout"


Statistics show that 50% of the worlds surviving Albatros scouts were brought down by Australian RE8s

Dear Forumites.

I hope this is going to work out, this is my first attempt to show a photo on the forum. These are pictures I took of the RE8 at Duxford.

With best wishes to all Old Bill

[MikeW]

Peter L *

Statistics show that 50% of the worlds surviving Albatros scouts were brought down by Australian RE8s *

Sorry to bugger up your joke Peter, I misread the report - The RE8 shot down a 2-seater, not a scout.

[PeterL]

Peter L *


Sorry to bugger up your joke Peter, I misread the report - The RE8 shot down a 2-seater, not a scout.

"....the worlds surviving Albatros scouts...."

You did it again! Hope you kept the receipt from that optician Mike * The key word here is surviving . There are two and the AWM Canberra one was brought down by an Australian RE8. It's a bugger when you have to explain the jokes


Nice pics by the way Billiam. And possibly the only one to one scale example of decal silvering *;D

Peter on a roll;
>Statistics show that 50% of the worlds surviving Albatros
>scouts were brought down by Australian RE8s

and

>And possibly the only one to one scale example of decal silvering

lol

Armstrong and Mart also forced a Halbertadt to land at 3 Sqn AFC's airfield. 3 Sqn AFC in their operational history accounted for 16 Destroyed, 8 Out of Control and 27 Driven Down. Interestingly Wrigley describes the 27 DD as "driven down and damaged on landing elsewhere other than an aerodrome".

The RE8 'Sylvia' from 3 Sqn AFC was brought back to Australia, but went missing soon after the war. Hopefully like the RAAF Museum Farman someone will realise that the lumps of wood in their shed were from an aircraft and give it to a museum to reconstruct. Assuming it isnt lost, destroyed or gone forever. Finger Xed. I have also been fortunate enough to see both surviving Albatros.

As to O Flight this is an interesting mission they did. Apparently it was suspected the German Army had a special observation post in the Forest of Marmal, the two Bristol Fighters with Jones and Loftes, Cherry and Lawton discovered a girder type tower painted in dark grey and four times the height of the trees in the forest. Nothing though about the towers fate. Another tidbit of info, in October 1918, 3 Sqn AFC evacuated 40 mechanics to influenza.



cam

[PeterL]

Cam, it's purely supposition but my perception is that there were aircraft better suited to bombing and recconaisance missions and that the RE8 was mostly employed on Artillery Observation by the RFC. A typical Art Obs would involve flying a slow figure eight at a constant altitude over a fixed point for up to four hours, all in hostile airspace facing an enemy capable to the end of enforcing local air superiority almost at will. If examined the RE's performance is actually quite respectable for an aircraft of this type and vintage and I wonder whether the mission profile was the real trouble. Were Australian RE8's used in a more general and less restrictive role?

Peter,

>If examined the RE's performance is actually quite
>respectable for an aircraft of this type and vintage
>and I wonder whether the mission profile was the real
>trouble. Were Australian RE8's used in a more general
>and less restrictive role?

They did quite a few different types of missions, I pulled this list from Wrigleys writings for another post by Drew;

o Artillery Reconnaissance : Observing the fire of enemy artillery.

o Artillery Patrol : The finding of the enemy's guns and artillery locations. The crew fly over the front and note any guns that are active and marking them on a map.

o Counter-battery Work : Working with an artillery crew to spot their firing onto enemy artillery batteries using "zone call" and "clock code".

o Trench Reconnaissance : Finding the best places were movement across No Mans Land and the enemy fron line could be carried out most easily. By the sounds of the 1st ANZAC Corps work on March 5th it was spotting for night trench raids. Also included the observation of enemy implacements as well as defensive and trench structures.

o Bombing Targets : 20 lb Cooper bombs on military targets.

o Smoke Bombs : Dropping phosphor bombs to provide smoke screens.

o Retaliation Patrols : Two aircraft would go out at the end of day as darkness fell and bomb targets near the front line.

o Propaganda drops : Dropping leaflets on the front lines. It was discontinued to the rough treatment captured RFC crew's got if captured if they had been dropping pamphlets.

o Air Photography : Mapping of area's and enemy positions through photographs.

o Reconnaissance : Observation of troop, transport and rail movements. Especially after large scale trench raids.

o Contact Patrol : Flying low over the front after an attack, blowing a klaxon horn to determine the most forward positions. Troops on the ground would light flares to indicate their locations.

o Counter Attack Patrol : Flying low over the front lines to determine the forward positions of enemy troops. Especially gatherings of enemy troops that may constitute a counter attack. During an advance the counter-attack aircraft would fly directly at enemy troop concentrations and fire red flares to denote the enemy troops locations.

o Supply Drops : Ammunition drops and supply drops to advanced troops in attacks.

o General Reconnassaince : Flying over broad parts of the front, continuously by day watching for anything unusual which might disclose allied preperations for an attack.

o Artillery Calls : Directing shell fire onto enemy troop and transport concentrations by means of zone calls. Used to direct shell fire on retreating enemy troops at the Battle of Mont St Quentin.


Other than the counter patrol types, most of those tasks seem well suited to a stable aircraft flying lazy eights. 3 Sqn AFC didnt seem to go out en-masse and attack a strategic target like 103 Sqn RAF would. Which is probably also an indication of the lack of escort they received. Even their sunset bombings seem like quick bombs just inside German lines at targets of oppurtunity.

The squadron lists dropping 112 lb bombs as well as 40 lb phosphor and 20 lb cooper bombs. They also list firing 500,000 rounds, which suggests they were firing at more than air targets. Interestingly they didnt appear to have attached a second Lewis to the observer's scarff ring at all. Was that common practise in Corps squadrons?




cam

[PeterL]

I take it all back Cam. Never mind the mission profile, they all look bloody dangerous to me. I only wish I could answer your question as comrehensively as you have answered mine.

It's possible I may have mentioned this before but I am just a dumb modeler. Such limited knowledge as I do have is restricted mostly to aircraft and colours; all else is best described as superficial. So, for now, I'll fall back on my original position and put any apparent difference in results down to Aussie grit.

Peter,

>Never mind the mission profile, they all look
>bloody dangerous to me.

Too right, it is amazing that the RE8 crews not only completed those missions but when attacked flocked together to fight it out with attacking scouts. 3 Sqn AFC dropped 114404 lbs of bombs, 4 Sqn AFC in comparison dropped 57 tons and 3 cwt. What is that in pounds?


>put any apparent difference in results down to
>Aussie grit.

It is probably an RE8 thing. 3 Sqn AFC divided their tasks and missions up by flights, if one flight was doing contact patrol, then the other was doing counter attack patrols and the third would doing frontline reconn. I imagine the RFC and RAF RE8 squadrons did the same. It amazes me in the communiques the stories of the RE8 crews getting shot up and getting home with the observer standing on the wing with his finger in the fuel tank.

There was on AFC RE8 crew who were dodging groundfire, trees and the lowering fog when they hit a tree which jammed a branch in their aileron. The Observer stood on the wing most of the way home so that the plane would balance. Camel and SE5a pilots had it easy in comparison.

A quick glance through Les Rodgers book shows;

1 X Lewis

o 5 Sqn RFC
o 13 Sqn RFC
o 16 Sqn RFC
o 21 Sqn RFC
o 59 Sqn RFC
o 3 Sqn AFC

2 X Lewis

o 52 Sqn RFC

It looks like the single Lewis for the observer was the most common for the Corps squadrons, wonder why?

The Les Rodgers book also has a picture of a Sunbeam Arab F2b with 12 Sqn RAF (an RE8 squadron, p44 ) at the armistice with the caption "Crews did not like the Bristol issued for special duties preferring the RE8". No idea what he based that one. Hopefully he in on the net and browses this site ;) It seems at odds with the statements of the 1 Sqn AFC pilots. Looks like more than one corps squadron received Sunbeam Arab engined F2b's as well.


cam