Say Can You See What Flag FoKker Flew at Schwerin?

Good evening,

Is the banner yet waving at the Fokker Werke the German triband, or would Fokker have been able to hoist the Dutch tricolor?

TIA to all,
Stefen

[AchimEngels]

Hi StefenK,

The bottom color of this flag apears to be red. So, since the Dutch colors are Red-White-Blue from top to bottom, I would say that this one is our German Black-White-Red.

But why should he not have been able to hoist the Dutch colors? Do you see the other one on top of the roof of the shed in the background? This one may be perhaps in Dutch colors.

Achim

P.S. I have imagined this one as a color photograph several times. Would indeed look nice!

Guten morgen, Achim--
I ask the question because a knowledge of which flag is flying may tell something about the film used in this photograph, and by extension something about photographic practice by Fokker company photographers. If the standard in the center of the picture is the German flag, then the photograph can be assumed to have been exposed on a panchromatic plate. If this type was in general use by Fokker for company photographs, then we are in a better position to make educated guesses about the appearance of the aircraft in company photos based on their grayscale tonal rendition.

What makes you see red in the center flag and something else in the smaller one at the left? I find the resolution of this scan to be insufficient to make a determination about the latter.

Thanks for your post,

Stefen

[PeterL]

Achim asks: "But why should he not have been able to hoist the Dutch colors? "

Dutch neutrality?

[AchimEngels]

PeterL,

well, that might be a point, but I am not firm enough with the rules of international law at that time. Would he be prohibited to hoist the flag of a neutral state?

He was not judged a official representative of the Dutch Gouvernment.

StefenK,

you got me on this one. I must admit that it just is a feeling that the lighter color on bottom might be the red.

I really admire your work in this field and such endeavours may well bring us ahead. I am at least in any position to take part in this discussion. I have seen a lot of glass negatives, but I know almost nothing about the chemical process or influences materials might have had on the appearance of shades of colors.

If there is a way for you to use my fabric samples for comparisation, I would be willing to lend you these for your research. Let me know.

Achim

[Roundel]

What ever the flag in the center was, it was also very thin -- you can see the edges of the roof through it (unless it was retouched).

My understanding is that Fokker was granted German citizenship and a knighthood during WWI. *Given that, the location of his company, and that Germany was practically the only customer for his planes, my guess would be that the flag is German, i.e., black over white over red. *But is that enough to generalize about what type of film was routinely used by Fokker?

For information on past and present flags, try "Flags of the World" at www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags.

Peter & Roundel:
I am persuaded by the arguments adduced that the center banner is German, and probably the other as well. *Taking this as so, the photograph can only have been taken with a panchromatic plate. *But heaven forbid that I should generalize! *Different films have their advantages, and the fact that this image was exposed on panchro does not necessarily mean that Fokker photographers never used anything else. *Quite the contrary. *However, what it does mean is that panchro was available and was used--probably more often in this context than in the field, especially by amateur snapshooters--and that we must be more aware and sensitive to the varieties of tonal renditions when using photographs to make assessments about color matters.

Achim: Thanks very much for your kind words. *Your offer of help in sharing fabric samples from your collection is deeply appreciated. *I'm currently doing some work with the appearance of printed fabric in photographs, and have even gotten my brother, an architect, obsessing about the problem. *I will contact you directly about details.

TIA to all, and to all a good night!
Stefen

[AchimEngels]

StefenK,

there is another thing you should consider, and for sure you did.

What are the influences of the reproduction process of this photograph? I do not know if there are a lot, but I can imagine very well that there are.

I do not know if I am able to make me fully understandable, but what I am basically saying is whould it not be better to try to collect some of the original prints? I do not talk about old photograps themselfes, but plates from which they have bee developed and to compare these?

I like the way you aproach the problem and if I am not involved in so many other projects I would be well interested in joining you.

What if the photograph shown above was not a stillphotograph at all? What if it is a part of a movie sequence that was simply photographed using any todays black and white film? Is your assumption still correct in that case?

Take care!
Achim

G'day, Achim,

You ask a number of good questions. *I'll try to anwer them.

"What are the influences of the reproduction process of this photograph? I do not know if there are a lot, but I can imagine very well that there are."

Indeed there are, as you, and anyone who has seen various reproductions of the same image in different publications. *The distortions that may occur--such as changes in contrast or overall brightness--will not, however, result in tonal reversals.

"[Would] it not be better to try to collect some of the original prints? I do not talk about old photograps themselfes, but plates from which they have bee developed and to compare these?"

Of course it would be better to have the original negatives--plates or film. *Negatives almost always have a greater tonal range than prints do, and reading of the negatives themselves might permit appreciating subtler tonal differences. *Additionally, having the negatives would permit making better prints with the advantages of modern photographic printing materials. *Unfortunately, it appears that the negatives for most of the images we are interested in no longer exist.

"What if the photograph shown above was not a stillphotograph at all? What if it is a part of a movie sequence that was simply photographed using any todays black and white film? Is your assumption still correct in that case?"

Black-and-white still and motion picture films use the same emulsion types, and so their color sensitivities remain the same. *If you know for certain that this image is a frame from a motion picture--which seems doubtful due to the rather good overall resolution--the question of when panchromatic was introduced as a motion picture emulsion would have to be explored, however. *I am working to find out when Kodak introduced such film in the US.

Speaking of panchromatic, in the course of continuing to research the question of Fokker Eindecker finishes, I have noted that the Americans of the USAS seem not only to have brought their chewing gum, but the cutting edge photographic technology with them. *Almost all photos of American SPADs in Datafile 32 provide evidence that they were taken with panchromatic emulsions. *The diagnostic here is the readability of the stenciling in the red rudder stripe:



While some French photos also show this, more often they look like this German example:



Just more cause for being very careful in looking at photographs wehen exploring issues of color and appearance.

Very best,
Stefen

[Cigogne]

I would say the flag is definitely the German flag of that time. There was more then one flag. The military had their versions (Army, Navy etc.) and the civilian population had theirs. Same with the English. There was the national flag, but also many other flags based on it or parts of it.

I am wondering if the effect on the smaller central flag is light reflection due to it bending or waving in the wind, OR... it was put upside down on the flagpole. Was there a right and wrong way to display the German colors back then? Maybe in haste for the picture taking opportunity the flag was posted wrong way up?

The colors were red white and black. Also, red is a fugitive color meaning more exposure to the sun (UV rays), the red will fade. This will also affect the way orthochromatic film reacts to it. Blue also reacts this way to UV rays. And, there are myriad shades of red. Why would Fokker be flying the Dutch flag at Schwerin?

Also, Roundel, you said Fokker was knighted. That is not correct. He would then have been referred to in literature of the time as Anthony Ritter von Fokker. He would also no doubt have used the title in his advertising of the time and any self agrandizement. Fokker wasn't shy!

Cigogne