Hidden food for Fokker triplane experts

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Here is a nice shot of the Schwerin factory that may be post-war.

You can see the Fokker D.VIIs and D.VIIIs.



Here is a zoom-in of a "goodie" way back in the background.



Okay guys what do we have here? V.7?

Best wishes,
Dave W.

[StephenLawson]

Yes it is. Modified with post July 1918 order crosses.

[Cigogne]

It is the V.7 with the bulged cowling for the Oberursel Ur.III 11-cylinder engine of 145 h.p. The Sh.III fitted V.7 cowling differed in being deeper because of the front "spider" mounting frame for the front bearing.

[Taz]

Dave, Cigogne- The other possibility is it is the V.7 with the Goebel Goe.III 170 hp engine, WN 1919. There were 5 V.7s, WN 1788 with Sh.III, originally with 2 bladed prop, later 4 bladed prop, which had raised undercarriage, normal length fuselage and no axle wing, 1830 with Sh.III (I think) and normal height undercarriage, fuselage length unknown, 1919 with Goe.III, lengthened fuselage, and normal height undercarriage and axle wing, and 1981 with normal height undercarriage, axle wing, 11 cylinder, 150 hp Le Rhone, and lengthened fuselage which was crashed by MAG/A-H, and the 5th Aaron mentions and for which I have lost my notes on the WN. The aircraft pictured could be 1919, which I have never seen in a photo, or the one for which I forget the WN and Aaron mentions, which I have also never seen. Great photo, regardless, and one which shows two possible Triplanes for which photos are extremely scarce. Dan-San knows the WN of the one V.7 I have forgotten, but I was unable to find his recent post. Old Timers' is setting in.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

While studying the image I found out some more.

Here is a closeup of a D.VIII fuselage in the image.



You can make out the werk nummer of "3282" written in chalk on the side of the fuselage. When we consult the acceptance sheets we find, D.VIII 527/18 werk nummer 3282, motor nr. 3343, was accepted on November 9th, 1918. The lozenge rudder seen in the foreground of this closeup has the number "86" written on it in chalk. If we presume this is werk nummer "3286" we find that correlating to D.VIII 531/18, werk nummer 3286, motor nr. 3359, also accepted on November 9th, 1918.

This would date the photograph to before November 9th, 1918 by some days or weeks. I hope this helps with identifying the V.7 in the background.

Also of note are the three E.V wings to the left of the closeup image. You can see the werk nummers on the ailerons. The first wing looks something like nummer "2756". This would be E.V 115/18 originally accepted on July 3rd. I'm thinking this would be a reworked wing? I don't see double acceptances for E.V's, only the initial acceptance.

Best,
Dave W.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
The Fokker werk nummer for the Fok.V.7 Triplane is 1981.
Blue skies,
Dan

[Rowan Broadbent]

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Also of note are the three E.V wings to the left of the closeup image. You can see the werk nummers on the ailerons. The first wing looks something like nummer "2756". This would be E.V 115/18 originally accepted on July 3rd. I'm thinking this would be a reworked wing? I don't see double acceptances for E.V's, only the initial acceptance.....

They look suspiciously solid-coloured, not a hint of a streak to be seen - not mischievous, just an observation!

Great info and pics!

Rowan

[Roadhog]

Dear Dave, Lordy this is a beautiful photograph. Where on earth did you find it? I take it that this was an assembly area. No trace of Henry Ford's assembly line here that I can see. This has really given me an insight into how Fokker assembled his planes. Thanks sir. VR Roadhog "Memento mori."

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Dave_Watts:
In the fuselage factory photograph the E.V/D/VIII wing with werk nummer of 2756 is displayed in white on the upper surface of the aileron of the wing in front, can you make out the werk nummer of the wing in back, the werk nummer is visible in front of the the white cowling on werk nummer 3282?
I had a discussion with Taz awhil ago about this photo and when it was possible taken. We know from the acceptance sheets that the following
Fok. D.VIII machines were accepted on 9 November along with Fok D.VIII527/18, D.VIII 264/18, 277/18, 527/18, 531/18, 533/18, 534/18, 535/18,
537/18, 538/18, 540/18 and five Fok.D.VII machines in th D.777x/18 range.
Because every thing is jumbled about with fuselage laying over another fuselage. There is only one worker in the photos. I think that this photo was taken after 11 November 1918
On 9 November when these aircraft were flight test by the Armee test pilots these machines were ASSEMBLED! The Armee personnel of the Bauaufsicht were responsible for the dissassembly, loading, blocking and packing the machines on the flat cars in preparation for shipment. Apparently Fok.D.VIII
115/18 is in there also, the front wing on the floor, w.n.2756. I can only guess that Fok.D.VIII 527/18 was damaged in some way and it was brought back to the factory for repair of some kind. This photograph may have been taken after production was shut down in December 1918 or January 1919.
Finally, The V.7(V.VII) in the right rear of the photo is Fok.V.7 w.n.1981. See your listing of 11 August 1920.
Blue skies,
Dan

[Dave_Watts]

Hi Roadhog,

Thanks for compliment. I believe I got this image from the Berlin Transportation Museum via the curator Dr. Dr. Holger Steinler some years ago.

I don't think you should consider this photo as how Fokker assembled his aircraft. The assembly rooms are very organized much like an assembly line.

I believe this is a mixture of aircraft; some under construction that work was halted on, some that were dissassembled for one reason or another (we can see the fuel stains on the landing gear fairings of the D.VIII's in the foreground as well as on other aircraft cowlings) and massing of components. For example in the earlier posted image of the closeup of the V.7 immediately below the rudder you can see a bunch of curved forms, these are wing cutouts from D.VII top wings. To the left of the top wing stack is a stack of bottom wings. Also you can see some of the D.VII's behind the D.VIII wings have motors installed as well as the D.VIII in the foreground with the "3282" chalked on it's side has its motor.

I believe this is a photo of materials being amassed and hidden from the Inter-Allied Aeronautical Control Commission, which was supposed to supervise the dismantling of Germany's military industry. Much of this found its way to Holland.

Fokker planned to buy back these aircraft that had already been sold to the military. He met in Berlin with the Reichsverwertungsamt (State Valuation Bureau) established to sell off surplus war material. A representative of this Bureau, Hermann Göring, was sent to Schwerin to arrange financial terms to buy back materials at his premises, (for an extremely good deal), including 92 D.VII's and 100 rotary motors. On March 18th, 1919 Fokker made his famous shipment of 350 rail cars with 220 aircraft (120 D.VII's, 60 C.I's, D.VIII's and others), some 400 aircraft motors, plus all sorts of machinery, stocks, and equipment. Yes, each train consisted of about sixty cars so they could not be put on sidings. Schwerin was liquidated on May 12th, 1922 and finally closed down in 1926.

Dan-San,

Didn't what you post was exactly what I posted with regards to identifying the werk numbers and aircraft? Look at my #5 posting in this series. I stated;

"You can make out the werk nummer of "3282" written in chalk on the side of the fuselage. When we consult the acceptance sheets we find, D.VIII 527/18 werk nummer 3282, motor nr. 3343, was accepted on November 9th, 1918. The lozenge rudder seen in the foreground of this closeup has the number "86" written on it in chalk. If we presume this is werk nummer "3286" we find that correlating to D.VIII 531/18, werk nummer 3286, motor nr. 3359, also accepted on November 9th, 1918.

Also of note are the three E.V wings to the left of the closeup image. You can see the werk nummers on the ailerons. The first wing looks something like nummer "2756". This would be E.V 115/18 originally accepted on July 3rd."

I just thought it was strange that you posted the exact same thing I did but made it sound as if you were discovering these observations. I thought you would have said something like; "I concur on the observations of the werk numbers and corresponding military numbers, but I think you have your date wrong, I believe the photograph may have been taken after production was shut down in December 1918 or January 1919."

Just an observation. Often times you do this to me and I don't understand. If you want to quote me, fine, but the overlooking of my postings rubs me the wrong way. Just a comment, no offense taken, just a courtesy asked for.

I was looking at this very image to reply to Roadhog, and I agree with you that my statement of the date being before November 9th is incorrect and it must be a photo of after November 9th. As to exactly when is an approximation. We know that a great amount of material was shipped to Holland on March 18th, 1919, so this limits us to the dates of the acceptances of November 9th (plus) to March 18th (minus), about a four month span. One can speculate from here.

Very best,
Dave W.

P.S. The werk numbers on the E.V wings are white not black, just an observation.